Regardless, you preach this propaganda at any given opportunity, it is shoved down our throats in the media etc, in fact the tv is the worse for it
Militant secularisation threat to religion, says Warsi
- Thread starter elmarko
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Regardless, you preach this propaganda at any given opportunity, it is shoved down our throats in the media etc, in fact the tv is the worse for it
You being too stupid to understand a theory does not mean it is false, it just means you don't understand it.
Soldato
Hi, going off-topic for a bit, but does anyone know any good online retailers for an irony meter? Mine's just blown.
It's not a strawman, it is an opinion. To dismiss it so easily ignores the fact that a great many people do not want to lose the traditions that are borne out of Christianity in this country.
I'm not religious, yet I am not offended by a council meeting saying prayers before a meeting, if you do not want to say them, simply sit there quietly while those that do continue. My Gran used to say Grace before a meal...did I refuse, of course not. It meant nothing to me so it didn't bother me in the least.
I am more offended that one person can subvert a democratic decision just because he disagrees with it, not that I am that fussed on a personal level about the specific case, just the precedent it implies that someone can overturn a democratic decision so easily and for such a trivial reason.
It was not as if they were sacrificing children, they were simply following a tradition that they have had for hundreds of years.
It is a theory, a Scientific one and I explained why that distinction is important and why it implies a greater level of consideration.
Soldato
You're fine saying prayers before a meeting, which is what they are going to do from now on. You're not fine saying prayers during a meeting. Either way, since when have prayers before a council meeting been part of the cultural tradition of the UK?
Why?
It hardly costs anything, if anything, took about 5 minutes and hurt no-one. The tea and biscuits however, that is evil, just think how much taxpayers money goes on Rich Tea and Earl Gray across the country and how many Nurses that could pay.
Maybe instead paying someone to supply the tea and biscuits, they should just take a moment to reflect on their decision making instead.
A good many Parish Councils have done it for several hundred years, others for longer.
It seems to a big old fuss over nothing, and the expense of a court case in my opinion was unjustified. They voted on it twice, yet a single person decided that his personal belief held greater weight than the rest of the council and so enforced his will on everyone...which leaves a bad taste in my mouth tbh.
It is not the saying of prayers or not saying them, I don't care either way, but the undermining of a democratic body that bugs me.
I don't think you understand what I was saying. Dawkins does not hold the views being ascribed to him in the piece, that being so, what was the point of the article?
A council meeting is for council business, saying prayers is unrelated to that business and should not be a part of the meeting.Castiel said:
What are you talking about? "democratic decision"? If you want to pray, do it on your own time and not in a manner that implies it's related to any part of government. I am very much against the establishment of religion by the state.Castiel said:
Logical fallacy - appeal to tradition.Castiel said:
I disagree, he has become increasingly belligerent as he has gotten older. However the article doesn't state anything other than Richard Dawkins supporting the separation of Church and State and moving religion from the Public to solely the Private sphere. I am quite sure that is what Richard Dawkins' view is on the subject.
A good many things are unrelated to council business, such as Tea and Biscuits. The whole of Governance in the UK is full of traditions and unrelated business....in fact even countries that have a separation of church and state have traditions that they uphold that have little or nothing to do with the "business" at hand.
You live in the wrong country then, because we have an established religion. And the council voted on removing the prayers from Council Meeting....on both occasions they voted to keep them. That should be enough.
Or is democracy only for secular opinions?
Pfft.
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Soldato
I'm not sure I buy the democratic argument. You can't disregard the rights of minorities simply based upon a majority vote.
I also find it interesting that religious people are quick to drag out the "tradition" argument on subjects such as this, but on the other hand many of them will talk about how the church needs to modernise with regards to views on women becoming bishops, gay marriage and so on. Which way around do they want it?
I'm not religious.
The point is that he was not forced to pray, he was simply present at the meetings when they were held because they were part of the council meeting. Not unlike saying Grace at a meal...I have no issue with not saying prayers at the beginning of a meeting, but I do have issue with the subversion of a democratic decision.
I am not disregarding the rights of minorities, but I don't agree that the persons rights were infringed to any degree, he wasn't forced to pray and being in the same room as someone praying is hardly an infringement of anyone's rights.
It seems to be about one man trying to enforce his beliefs on the group, he tried to do it through the democratic system, twice and when that failed he took it to court. That just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Like I said, I don't particularly care about the particular case, or whether they say prayers before, during or after a meeting...just the way in which it was done and why.
Castiel:
This thread:
hahaha....
That is the truest post in this thread tbh.....
I have to go now, as it is time to take the other half to the traditional celebration of St Valentine.....hopefully someone won't try to sue to have it removed from the calendar because it infringes on their secular rights before we reach the restaurant....it took months to get the table.