More Sony Bashing - Buy a PlayStation 3 and Sink Sony

kumar101 · 26 Sep 2006 at 08:33

mglover070588 said:
i will be very interested to see which is fastest out of ps3 and 360. I think MS have hit it with the 360 I think they are holding the power back at the mo

suggest you read this Lair article at IGN: http://ps3.ign.com/articles/733/733921p5.html

IGN: Quick Fanboy wars question -- Could Lair be done under its current spec on the Xbox 360? If so, why go with the PlayStation 3 "only" instead of going cross-platform?

Eggebrecht: Lair in its current form couldn't be done on 360. We are using large amounts of Cell's SPUs for all of our geometry, landscape, simulations, animations, even troop AI.

JUMPURS · 26 Sep 2006 at 08:55

kumar101 said:
suggest you read this Lair article at IGN: http://ps3.ign.com/articles/733/733921p5.html

Ahhh yeah in its current form it couldnt be done, which is actually what we like to hear. the Devs say they are concentrating on the platform it is for and would need to rebuild the engine for the 360. I am happy about that, as i would be if it was the other way around, as it means we are getting the best for the machine, not a middle ground. Doesn't mean it couldnt be done or that the 360 doesn't have the power, just that the architecture is so different it wouldn't be a straight swap.

kumar101 · 26 Sep 2006 at 09:15

JUMPURS said:
Ahhh yeah in its current form it couldnt be done, which is actually what we like to hear. the Devs say they are concentrating on the platform it is for and would need to rebuild the engine for the 360. I am happy about that, as i would be if it was the other way around, as it means we are getting the best for the machine, not a middle ground. Doesn't mean it couldnt be done or that the 360 doesn't have the power, just that the architecture is so different it wouldn't be a straight swap.

Need to have a look at the in-game footage in HD format to see where the developers coming from its done at full 1080p. If you read the next paragraph in the article:

Eggebrecht: The single level at TGS alone takes up 4 Gigabytes of data. We are using every ounce of that due to streaming of our textures. Sure you could chop them all down to tiny sizes and we would fit, but then again, it would not be the same game.

So just one level takes-up 4GB alone so 360 lacks storage for a start. On top of that 360 simply does not have the Horsepower to render it never mind make it playable. This is why Sony took 5 years and spent billions to develop the Cell.

Of course they can make a 360 version but it wont be the same game.

rayb74 · 26 Sep 2006 at 09:17

Sony could charge £1000 for the their consoles and some saddo fan boys would still pre - order it..............
It`s the legion of Fan boys that ruin it for Sony`s "normal" customers who have to pay elevated prices due to the fan boys actions !!!

JUMPURS · 26 Sep 2006 at 09:19

i thought it was just sheer horsepower someone was looking at.
yeah i know that storage and display would be an issue, but so would the controls

BoomAM · 27 Sep 2006 at 10:32

andy8271 said:
...snip...

People are crisising Sony because they have become arrogant enough to think that they can do anything they want and still expect it to sell.
They've lied about various aspects of the PS3 and are making some, quite frankly, complete blunders in every aspect of the PS3.
From its design, to its cost, to its marketing, to its dev kits, ect;

Might have already been covered, but, 'meh'.

:
Its amusing to see so many people critisise the 360 and its power based upon an article that many people havnt even understood properly.
That game is designed from the ground up to work on PS3. Theres no reason whatsoever that it could not be made with the same level of graphics and sound on the 360 at all. People who think othewise are just kidding themselves.
Fact is that the PS3 isn’t as powerful as Sony has been making out, as has been proven by some lacklustre demos on the system and the artificial speeding up of another demo so its actually viewable.
When it comes down it, the 360 and the PS3 are pretty near to each other in 'power', although the more efficient architecture of the 360 probably edges it slightly.
And no, im not a MS fanboy. I dont even own a 360 for a start!

gord · 27 Sep 2006 at 11:08

Mark A said:
Is that how much they are going to be? .

The OcUK PS3 price ranges from £425 to £600 depending on your allegiance level.

kumar101 · 27 Sep 2006 at 14:22

BoomAM said:
People are crisising Sony because they have become arrogant enough to think that they can do anything they want and still expect it to sell.
They've lied about various aspects of the PS3 and are making some, quite frankly, complete blunders in every aspect of the PS3.
From its design, to its cost, to its marketing, to its dev kits, ect;

Might have already been covered, but, 'meh'. :
Its amusing to see so many people critisise the 360 and its power based upon an article that many people havnt even understood properly.
That game is designed from the ground up to work on PS3. Theres no reason whatsoever that it could not be made with the same level of graphics and sound on the 360 at all. People who think othewise are just kidding themselves.
Fact is that the PS3 isn’t as powerful as Sony has been making out, as has been proven by some lacklustre demos on the system and the artificial speeding up of another demo so its actually viewable.
When it comes down it, the 360 and the PS3 are pretty near to each other in 'power', although the more efficient architecture of the 360 probably edges it slightly.
And no, im not a MS fanboy. I dont even own a 360 for a start!

Whats been misunderstood about the article?

The developer was asked straight question. Can this be game done as-is on a 360 and he categorically stated that it cannot. This is not my opinion but that of the games developer.

BoomAM · 27 Sep 2006 at 14:30

kumar101 said:
Whats been misunderstood about the article?

The developer was asked straight question. Can this be game done as-is on a 360 and he categorically stated that it cannot. This is not my opinion but that of the games developer.

The misunderstanding is that people see these quotes off developers and take them as gospel.
He's said that 'as is' it cannot be done, true, but thats because the engine has been designed & optimised heavily for usage on the PS3.
If they designed the engine to be multiplatform, or designed/optimised for the 360, it could be done on the 360 just as well.
For people to think that the PS3 is some super console because one developer has said that his game at the moment cant be done on the 360 is just plane daft. It shows a lack of understanding, and more so, shows them only reading what they want to read.
Again, he has said in its current form, it cant work on a 360, because its designed for Cell. If they designed it for 360, then it'd work just as well.

kumar101 · 27 Sep 2006 at 15:05

BoomAM said:
The misunderstanding is that people see these quotes off developers and take them as gospel.
He's said that 'as is' it cannot be done, true, but thats because the engine has been designed & optimised heavily for usage on the PS3.
If they designed the engine to be multiplatform, or designed/optimised for the 360, it could be done on the 360 just as well.
For people to think that the PS3 is some super console because one developer has said that his game at the moment cant be done on the 360 is just plane daft. It shows a lack of understanding, and more so, shows them only reading what they want to read.
Again, he has said in its current form, it cant work on a 360, because its designed for Cell. If they designed it for 360, then it'd work just as well.

The way I read it is that PS3’s architecture enables something this complex to be achieved for the first time and could not be done on the 360 even if done from the ground up. If you wish to interpret it differently that’s your prerogative.

But having seen the results in the Video I can believe him. BTW the game itself is a bit crap but you have to marvel at the technical achievements.

JUMPURS · 27 Sep 2006 at 15:32

kumar101 said:
The way I read it is that PS3’s architecture enables something this complex to be achieved for the first time and could not be done on the 360 even if done from the ground up. If you wish to interpret it differently that’s your prerogative.

But having seen the results in the Video I can believe him. BTW the game itself is a bit crap but you have to marvel at the technical achievements.

No what he said was

Lair in its current form couldn't be done on 360.

He plays a polititians game and doesn't say 'The 360 just couldnt handle it' what he said was the engine was built a specific way.
If they where doing it on the 306, then they would build the engine a different way and he doesnt say if it would be do-able, but then again, he probably doesn't know enough about the 360 hardware and development method as he does the PS3, so probably would be unable to accurately comment.

I do think the cell is a powerfull beast and more powerfull than the 360's processor. If it wasnt MS would be churning out Hi End Mainframes/PC's with the 360 chip in it, but they are not. but Sony and IBM are churning out major number crunchers using the Cell. I think the most pwoerfull supercomputer in the world they are building will use a lot of the cell.
There is one company who knows what CPU is the best and by how much, and they will never say, because its IBM and they will annoy a major customer no matter what they say

kumar101 · 27 Sep 2006 at 15:57

JUMPURS said:
No what he said was

He plays a polititians game and doesn't say 'The 360 just couldnt handle it' what he said was the engine was built a specific way.

Disagree, but im getting bored with this now - seem to be going round in circles.

I do think the cell is a powerfull beast and more powerfull than the 360's processor. If it wasnt MS would be churning out Hi End Mainframes/PC's with the 360 chip in it, but they are not.

MS could not cause its just an enchanced triple-core PowerPC-based design by IBM.

BoomAM · 27 Sep 2006 at 18:47

kumar101 said:
MS could not cause its just an enchanced triple-core PowerPC-based design by IBM.

If you belive that then i have to question your opinion completely from now onwards.

As JUMPURS has said, he's not said that the 360 cant at all.
And thats what most people are reading it as.

As for 360 vs Cell:
Raw power, probably about even, but the 360 is a more elegant design in many ways.
The fact that Cell is basically 1 CPU and 7 (or however many) 'quarter-cores' doesnt really add up to proper multiprocessing. But, it does mean the Cell is better at streaming than the 360 could ever hope to be. The 360s 3 full cores, each capible of 2 threads iirc, means that its a processor capible of doing 4 intensive threads and 4 not so intensive threads. Where as Cell is 1 intensive thread & 7 lightweight threads.
Obviously the above is extremely dumbed down.

I dont think that theres anything on either the 360 or the PS3 that cant be done just as well as on the other platform given time and effort.

kumar101 · 27 Sep 2006 at 22:21

BoomAM said:
If you belive that then i have to question your opinion completely from now onwards.

As JUMPURS has said, he's not said that the 360 cant at all.
And thats what most people are reading it as.

As for 360 vs Cell:
Raw power, probably about even, but the 360 is a more elegant design in many ways.
The fact that Cell is basically 1 CPU and 7 (or however many) 'quarter-cores' doesnt really add up to proper multiprocessing. But, it does mean the Cell is better at streaming than the 360 could ever hope to be. The 360s 3 full cores, each capible of 2 threads iirc, means that its a processor capible of doing 4 intensive threads and 4 not so intensive threads. Where as Cell is 1 intensive thread & 7 lightweight threads.
Obviously the above is extremely dumbed down.
I dont think that theres anything on either the 360 or the PS3 that cant be done just as well as on the other platform given time and effort.

I didn’t make my point very well but what I was really trying to say was that IBM own the intellectual property rights on the XBOX CPU and MS couldn’t sell it even if they wanted to. This is based existing PPC design which IBM use in their Midrange Systems as do Nintendo in Consoles and Apple in their boxes.

Cell was a Sony/Toshiba spec, in fact Toshiba own a lot of the Patents on the Cell Concept. Sony could not have made it a reality without IBMs help. The difference is that all three companies can redesign and reuse as they please.

Cell does not work like a traditional CPU. The PPE ques tasks to the SPEs. The SPEs are actually RISC processors. These run incredibly fast in parallel within protected memory spaces. So when a developers making a game he can dedicate a SPE to Geometry another to Physics another to Sound etc. If you examine the research done then final throughput is much higher than normal CPUs.

Wait till both Systems are out in the open - as they say the proof of the pudding …..

BoomAM · 15 Oct 2006 at 12:23

kumar101 said:
...snip...

Caught up in marketing there.
Yes it does have a high 'throughput', but that does not make it a fast processor at all.

Multiple developers have said that its a pain to code for, including the god of coding that is Carmack.

ben_j_davis · 20 Oct 2006 at 09:50

"A JAPANESE tech site has pointed out that Sony might have a few problems in selling the concept behind its new PS3 controller.

According to Broadband Watch, Sony is expecting to get 30 hours of life from a single charge, but the battery cannot be replaced. This means that when the battery finally dies, or in the case of a Sony battery explodes, you will have to buy a new controller.

These are not that cheap and it seems strange that Sony have moved for a disposable tag on what is a key part of the console arrangement. Already the PS3 is being blasted for being far more expensive than its rivals."

http://gaming-edge.blogspot.com/2006/10/sony-clarifies-some-ps3-controller-talk.html?doh

sparkymark75 · 20 Oct 2006 at 10:38

kumar101 said:
I didn’t make my point very well but what I was really trying to say was that IBM own the intellectual property rights on the XBOX CPU and MS couldn’t sell it even if they wanted to. This is based existing PPC design which IBM use in their Midrange Systems as do Nintendo in Consoles and Apple in their boxes.

I believe MS do actually own the IP for the 360 CPU (and the GPU?). If you read the article at http://www.designnews.com/article/CA6372107.html?nid=2328&rid=582793453 which was posted on OcUK a week or so ago, it refers to the fact that MS wanted to own the IP for all the silicon because it would help keep costs down longer term.

Robert · 20 Oct 2006 at 10:49

kumar101 said:
Need to have a look at the in-game footage in HD format to see where the developers coming from its done at full 1080p. If you read the next paragraph in the article:

So just one level takes-up 4GB alone so 360 lacks storage for a start. On top of that 360 simply does not have the Horsepower to render it never mind make it playable. This is why Sony took 5 years and spent billions to develop the Cell.

Of course they can make a 360 version but it wont be the same game.

So why have the developed of Assassins creed said it will be better on the 360?

JUMPURS said:
No what he said was

He plays a polititians game and doesn't say 'The 360 just couldnt handle it' what he said was the engine was built a specific way.
If they where doing it on the 306, then they would build the engine a different way and he doesnt say if it would be do-able, but then again, he probably doesn't know enough about the 360 hardware and development method as he does the PS3, so probably would be unable to accurately comment.

I do think the cell is a powerfull beast and more powerfull than the 360's processor. If it wasnt MS would be churning out Hi End Mainframes/PC's with the 360 chip in it, but they are not. but Sony and IBM are churning out major number crunchers using the Cell. I think the most pwoerfull supercomputer in the world they are building will use a lot of the cell.
There is one company who knows what CPU is the best and by how much, and they will never say, because its IBM and they will annoy a major customer no matter what they say

Also - that's part of the point. The cell maybe amazing at crunching data like that, but it isn't as good for crunching games (I think it was something to do with the branching it used).

Manlove is my forte · 20 Oct 2006 at 10:54

Robert said:
So why have the developed of Assasins creed said it will be better on the 360?

Source?

bingham67 · 20 Oct 2006 at 11:00

I have stayed out this debate but just seen this so thought id post.

Sony claims Xbox 360 requires HD DVD, etc, thus costs $700. :/

http://www.engadget.com/2006/10/19/sony-claims-xbox-360-requires-hd-dvd-etc-thus-costs-700