Motorsport Off Topic Thread

:eek: That looks like a badly coded computer game crash.

I am seriously becoming concerned with how many big accidents we are seeing in lower levels like GP2 and WSbR. These young drivers seem to be getting less and less safety concious.
 
I do agree, El Watcher. Although I do believe its not just the lower echelons, even in F1 there are several moves which were inconceivable only a few years back.
 
The lower levels tends to breed aggressive gung-ho driving, same spec cars and limited potential to be noticed and move up means they'll always be willing to take the risks.
 
Yeah but come on, Max has been epic to watch this year, and the difference between epic pass and massive crash is mm's. The skill is in knowing where the limit is, and the only way you find that is by pushing them.

But some of the Euro F3 guys are just idiots though.
 
Skeeter said:
Yeah but come on, Max has been epic to watch this year, and the difference between epic pass and massive crash is mm's. The skill is in knowing where the limit is, and the only way you find that is by pushing them.
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No, that's the margin between most serious accidents and avoiding them. If you've done any racing in real life you'll learn that real the limit is finding what you can do to win, not necessarily finding the absolute limit.

Success is what you do, not what you might have done, and for me that's where the uncertainty around Verstappen lies currently. He's great entertainment, but he's already had a crash which could have put him on the sidelines, or even ended his career. I hope he gets into a winning car in the next 5 years, but at such a young age it wouldn't surprise me if season 2 ends up with him trying to live up to the reputation he's building for himself and he finds himself on the sharp side of Helmut's sword this time next year.

None of the greats 'got away with' huge shunts caused by recklessness and that won't change. That said, if it's all rosy, it's great for the Red Bull, and if he gains some consistency it's great for the sport too.
 
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It is rather worrying for Toro Rosso. Renault won't allow Toro Rosso to run one engine if their parent team has another, and I'm pretty sure Ferrari and Mercedes won't agree to taking one customer each due to little engine secrets.

Surely whoever takes on Red Bull will need to supply Toro Rosso too.
 
Shimmy said:
Looks like Ferrari would be the only option:

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red-bull-s-hopes-of-mercedes-deal-are-all-but-over
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I imagine Merc was stringing them along wasting their time :D I can't imagine why anyone thought it would be a good idea. With the same engine you would have to fancy Red Bull to beat them. There's the argument that having more of their engines up top would be good but it's better to have a lower team or two take points away from a rival than losing a title to a customer team.
 
this_is_gav said:
It is rather worrying for Toro Rosso. Renault won't allow Toro Rosso to run one engine if their parent team has another, and I'm pretty sure Ferrari and Mercedes won't agree to taking one customer each due to little engine secrets.

Surely whoever takes on Red Bull will need to supply Toro Rosso too.
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Red Bull and Toro Rosso have had dofferent engines for longer than they have had the same engines. Can't see any reason why Toro Rosso would have to follow Red Bull?

The problem may be Renault withdrawing their supply though...
 
dannyjo22 said:
I imagine Merc was stringing them along wasting their time :D I can't imagine why anyone thought it would be a good idea. With the same engine you would have to fancy Red Bull to beat them. There's the argument that having more of their engines up top would be good but it's better to have a lower team or two take points away from a rival than losing a title to a customer team.
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Which is why I think separating manufacturers and teams is a good idea, both in chassis and engine. Should F1 be allowing Mercedes to basically choose who is competitive in F1?

Good news for Ferrari though. If Manor surive and get current spec engines there will be 5 Ferrari engines teams on the grid next year.

Actually, would that be allowed? I thought they were currently capped at 4 teams each?
 
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dannyjo22 said:
I imagine Merc was stringing them along wasting their time :D I can't imagine why anyone thought it would be a good idea. With the same engine you would have to fancy Red Bull to beat them. There's the argument that having more of their engines up top would be good but it's better to have a lower team or two take points away from a rival than losing a title to a customer team.
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The primary reason Mercedes were considering it was to help promote their brand to a younger audience, the thinking being than an association with Red Bull would help.

The F1 team personnel have always been against it. It was the Mercedes hierarchy who were considering it, but it seems they've been persuaded otherwise by Wolff and Lauda.



Skeeter said:
Red Bull and Toro Rosso have had dofferent engines for longer than they have had the same engines. Can't see any reason why Toro Rosso would have to follow Red Bull?

The problem may be Renault withdrawing their supply though...
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It was a bit different when the engines were far more basic, long established and all engine development was locked though (barring the "reliability improvements").
 
this_is_gav said:
The primary reason Mercedes were considering it was to help promote their brand to a younger audience, the thinking being than an association with Red Bull would help..
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I don't know why they would even bother with that audience. They don't make cars for them do they? It's not like Renault for example who build cars for younger people. If you earn enough to buy a merc you are probably not bothered about the young image.

Seems stupid to target an audience you don't really cater for?
 
dannyjo22 said:
I don't know why they would even bother with that audience. They don't make cars for them do they? It's not like Renault for example who build cars for younger people. If you earn enough to buy a merc you are probably not bothered about the young image.

Seems stupid to target an audience you don't really cater for?
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Pass. That's what I read. I can't imagine there's much business in the daddy's rich kid market either.

Maybe they are considering branching out. A new Smart turbo perhaps. :p
 
this_is_gav said:
The primary reason Mercedes were considering it was to help promote their brand to a younger audience, the thinking being than an association with Red Bull would help.

The F1 team personnel have always been against it. It was the Mercedes hierarchy who were considering it, but it seems they've been persuaded otherwise by Wolff and Lauda.
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Lauda has been vocal in saying he'd supply the whole grid. This article doesn't say who the source is and isn't entirely believable.

Remember that teams are in negotiation over these things, the right PR, the right leak, the right pressure can result in more favourable terms for a team.
If Mercedes get stories published left right and centre that they are basically going to refuse because RBR might badmouth them... RBR in desperation to get the engines promise contractually not to do so. People need to read beyond the headlines and read into the political motivations for such leaks.

F1 is one of the most politically involved sports around and nothing is straight forward. I'm under the impression Lotus have a contract for Merc engines next year, at this stage the FIA need to approve a request to allow Merc to supply a 4th customer team. If Merc play the part of utterly happy about it, desperate for approval other teams will be less inclined to approve(if as rumoured the FIA also seeks team approval before rubber stamping permission). A Merc playing the part of scared of the competition and not entirely happy about the situation is one the other teams are more likely to be okay with than the Merc running around jumping for joy at the prospect.

Currently Merc are almost 200 points ahead of Ferrari, if RBR took 1/3 of their wins away sure RBR would be closer to Ferrari, but Merc would have less points and be closer to Ferrari also, ergo Ferrari would be closer to the top.

Effectively the worse the deal looks for Merc the more the rest of the teams and the FIA are likely to approve them supplying another team.

It's the same method behind Bernie, he goes around making up crazy ideas no one wants so everyone else starts agreeing to sensible things they were previously fighting over in case Bernie pushes through one of his mental ideas. Though Bernie's ideas are more to scare the fans into supporting ideas rather than the teams. Hence his carefully timed plans that fans rage against right before teams agree to other changes for future seasons.
 
dannyjo22 said:
I don't know why they would even bother with that audience. They don't make cars for them do they? It's not like Renault for example who build cars for younger people. If you earn enough to buy a merc you are probably not bothered about the young image.

Seems stupid to target an audience you don't really cater for?
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You do, the entire marketing industry targets younger audiences. You may not make some £5k starter car for a 18yr old, but if that 18 yr old since being 10yrs old has dreams about owning a Merc then when he can afford one he will buy one, even if it's a £50k car when he's 40. If that 10yr old loves Renault he might buy that £5k Renault starter car, but then he'll also buy a £50k Renault when he's 40.

Marketing is aimed at young people because people stick with brands for life, they may not buy that brand for life because they may not always be able to, but people learn what they like early and remember for life.

Almost all marketing tries to target younger people for these reasons, it doesn't really matter what you sell or if young people can afford what you sell.
 
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