Motorsport Off Topic Thread

drunkenmaster said:
Lauda has been vocal in saying he'd supply the whole grid. This article doesn't say who the source is and isn't entirely believable.

Remember that teams are in negotiation over these things, the right PR, the right leak, the right pressure can result in more favourable terms for a team.
If Mercedes get stories published left right and centre that they are basically going to refuse because RBR might badmouth them... RBR in desperation to get the engines promise contractually not to do so. People need to read beyond the headlines and read into the political motivations for such leaks.

F1 is one of the most politically involved sports around and nothing is straight forward. I'm under the impression Lotus have a contract for Merc engines next year, at this stage the FIA need to approve a request to allow Merc to supply a 4th customer team. If Merc play the part of utterly happy about it, desperate for approval other teams will be less inclined to approve(if as rumoured the FIA also seeks team approval before rubber stamping permission). A Merc playing the part of scared of the competition and not entirely happy about the situation is one the other teams are more likely to be okay with than the Merc running around jumping for joy at the prospect.

Currently Merc are almost 200 points ahead of Ferrari, if RBR took 1/3 of their wins away sure RBR would be closer to Ferrari, but Merc would have less points and be closer to Ferrari also, ergo Ferrari would be closer to the top.

Effectively the worse the deal looks for Merc the more the rest of the teams and the FIA are likely to approve them supplying another team.

It's the same method behind Bernie, he goes around making up crazy ideas no one wants so everyone else starts agreeing to sensible things they were previously fighting over in case Bernie pushes through one of his mental ideas. Though Bernie's ideas are more to scare the fans into supporting ideas rather than the teams. Hence his carefully timed plans that fans rage against right before teams agree to other changes for future seasons.
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You'd have to believe Ferrari wouldn't be happy with another team becoming stronger and might (if they still have it, and I've no reason to believe they don't) use their veto of any sporting regulation changes. You can't believe they would agree to RB getting what most believe is the best engine on the grid?
 
Meh, for Ferrari they need an improved engine next year to be competitive. At some stage they hope to have an engine as good as or better than Mercedes, at which point they'd prefer RBR to have Merc engines than Ferrari engines. In the meantime if they end up giving RBR engines which is pretty much the alternative to them getting Merc engines, they will have RBR directly competing with them every year.

If Ferrari are on par with Merc on engine power next year then it doesn't really matter which team RBR work with, if Ferrari are behind then RBR will take points off Ferrari if they have Ferrari engines or off Merc if they have Merc engines.

It's better for RBR to be piling pressure on the Mercedes, getting into some incidents when overtaking, pushing each other harder causing engine failures, tire deg, extra pitstops. Basically I can't think of a reason they would veto it because ultimately it would hurt Merc more than them and should they get their own engine to the point of being as strong or stronger than Merc which they require... then it's better for RBR to not have that same engine.
 
Interesting and Ferrari must be very confident if they are happy to supply RB and TR. I'm not sure Renault will be happy only running one team either so perhaps Sauber to go with Renault? They've had Ferrari engines for quite a few years.
 
Its Renault themselves who have ruled out providing customer teams with engines.

So if that all comes true, thats Lotus using Renault, McLaren using Honda, and then 5 teams using Ferrari (Ferrari, Sauber, RBR, STR, Haas) and 4 using Mercedes (Mercedes, Williams, Force India, Manor).

Good move by Ferrari, and the Mercedes B team in Manor is also good, bets on them putting that Dev driver in a seat (can't remember his name, the German guy, drove a lot in testing?).

Massive win for Manor though, Mercedes power and Mercedes support, they must be jumping at this!
 
Yep thats him. I hope they do something to get him on the grid, or he might end up stuck in that perpetual test driver role that far to many drivers get lost in :(
 
If that's true, sounds like mercades are going to copy ferrari with their massive couple up to Haas

That leaves Renault either ditching f1 altogether, or ditching it after 1 or two seasons.
If it is only 1 team I can see them ditching f1 altogether, they've repeatedly said that is on the cards for next season.
 
So Manor buying engines off Mercedes and Mercedes paying 1-2mil to put a pay driver in Manor is a massive couple up... even though many teams pay for drivers to be put in other teams?

I can't help but see this as bad if it happens as being speculated. Though afaik most of it seems to be people reporters jumping to conclusions.

If Ferrari ends up on par with Mercedes in terms of engines next year which is possible then you have 5 Ferrari teams, 4 Merc teams but the Ferrari teams would make up two top budget competitive teams and TR would be pretty strong. Mercedes would have the ever underperforming Williams, FI and Manor... who will suck. Suddenly you go from at some races having say 6-8 Merc engines finishing in the top ten which is a huge deal in terms of marketing/exposure/etc, to having maybe 6-8 Ferrari engines finishing in the top 10 with only a single strong Mercedes team, themselves.

This is why it makes sense for them to have RBR, Ferrari will eventually get pretty damn close on the engine and RBR continue to make very strong cars, with either a Mercedes or Ferrari engine they'll be competing for podiums and they can do that while promoting Mercedes or Ferrari engines. It would be insanely short sighted to hand Ferrari a second big team.
 
Skeeter said:
Why would they be buying a team if there plan is to ditch F1 altogether after 1 year?
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If they choose to buy a team they intend to stay in F1, however that doesn't mean they won't leave. if they try for a big 2017 and fail they could easily choose to give up. At some point throwing good money after bad just becomes bad business.

They won't choose to buy a team with the plan to leave a year or two later though as that would be entirely pointless.
 
Can't see how Mclaren are ever going to catchup, only 1 team running their engines against competitors with 1 years running advantage plus probably running 4-6 more engines each race weekend with different teams gaining all that extra info. Realistically until we have another fundamental rule change which hits the reset switch on development they're going to be forever chasing their tail surely?
 
Psycho Ned said:
Can't see how Mclaren are ever going to catchup, only 1 team running their engines against competitors with 1 years running advantage plus probably running 4-6 more engines each race weekend with different teams gaining all that extra info. Realistically until we have another fundamental rule change which hits the reset switch on development they're going to be forever chasing their tail surely?
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They are doomed, and will likely be at the back of grid next season, unless Haas save their blushes.
 
Psycho Ned said:
Can't see how Mclaren are ever going to catchup, only 1 team running their engines against competitors with 1 years running advantage plus probably running 4-6 more engines each race weekend with different teams gaining all that extra info. Realistically until we have another fundamental rule change which hits the reset switch on development they're going to be forever chasing their tail surely?
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It would certainly help but the main restriction is in season development set by the rules. Honda already know their MGU-H is the main issue and it won't be fixed until next season.
 
Difficult times here, no doubt. But believe me when I say everyone I speak to is bloody focused on doing everything we can to get back to where we want to be.

Very little you can do though at the moment, the car itself the drivers like, just a complete kick in the teeth that the engine/recovery/deployment is woeful.
 
englishpremier said:
They are doomed, and will likely be at the back of grid next season, unless Haas save their blushes.
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I wouldn't bet against Haas being surprisingly good next year.

All year teams have complained about the loophole in which Ferrari can use Haas for unlimited wind tunnel/cfd testing as by the rules Haas are under no limits. Now I thought this was dodgy when it sounded like Ferrari might send over a wing design and have them run some numbers for them. The latest rumour is that Ferrari all but fired their entire aero department early this year, Haas magically hired them all. They've been working with unlimited testing all year and will randomly all be fired at the end of this year and rehired at Ferrari.

Honestly if that is what they've done I'd be entirely happy to see Ferrari unable to take part in the constructors next year, regardless of loopholes or not that is intentionally cheating.

Either way Haas will have had a huge department under their noses teaching them aero and getting them up to speed. The more we hear about Ferrari/Haas the closer it sounds to being a customer car. I wouldn't be surprised if we have same engine, bbw, gearbox, suspension and maybe only a aero difference.

What Mclaren might have to worry about is a 2016 Manor with a Mercedes engine that is competitive with them rather than not. Frankly they'll gain 2 seconds a lap with a Mercedes engine in, at least. Ferrari had the worst engine in 2014 don't forget and that is what Manor are using. If they were using 2015 Ferrari they'd be 1.5 seconds faster a lap and close to Mclaren as it is, with a 2016 chassis, aero and a Merc engine they'd be even faster.
 
Duke said:
It would certainly help but the main restriction is in season development set by the rules. Honda already know their MGU-H is the main issue and it won't be fixed until next season.
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I think he means, effectively if you hit the start of new regulation period running then each year you develop the car further. Even if Mclaren magically got a engine on par with mercedes for next year, their car is still 2-3 years behind of year on year development. You can't really get the best aero testing if you are 2 seconds down on everyone. They talk about being fast in corners but if you put way more power into those tires you start to get increasing temps and they may find they have to back off in corners to keep temps down and that the chassis eats tires like the 2013 Merc did. They don't really know, until you are on pace you can't get great development out of the car.

Mclaren even with a fixed engine next year won't be as polished a car as any of the other top teams. 2017 offers them an aero reset, but that won't reset everything. Mercedes as a team have brilliant suspension, brake by wire, electronic reliability within the car, again things that get improved year on year.

Mclaren need to focus on 2017 and having a car and decent basis of a 2017 aero design to be competitive throughout the next regulation period.
 
DiCe! said:
Difficult times here, no doubt. But believe me when I say everyone I speak to is bloody focused on doing everything we can to get back to where we want to be.

Very little you can do though at the moment, the car itself the drivers like, just a complete kick in the teeth that the engine/recovery/deployment is woeful.
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I've no doubt in that, all I ever hear Button say is that everyone's working flat out... but how much can the engine and PUs improve over the winter do you feel?
 
smr said:
I've no doubt in that, all I ever hear Button say is that everyone's working flat out... but how much can the engine and PUs improve over the winter do you feel?
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Depends entirely how long ago they decided they needed to change the layout imho. Arai is saying that now which I feel is some 4-5 months after Ferrari made the decision last year meaning way less time to get it right for 2016. of course Arai/Mclaren/Honda have been chatting crap all year. They could have been working on the 2016 engine since April and just pretending everything is fine publicly.

Ferrari also brought in the ERS guy, a fuel guy and I believe another engine expert early last season... Honda do seem unwilling to make those kinds of moves. Doesn't mean they can't do it on their own but I'd say it would improve their odds of getting a engine for 2016.

Without bringing in help and if they started very late I can't see them making the same level of improvements as Ferrari did.
 
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