Motorsport Off Topic Thread

I think we need to give them a bit of slack. Had Honda produced a decent engine we would have all been saying what a brilliant and inspired decision they made.

The situation they have found themselves in isn't really all McLarens doing. What is key is how they now get themselves out of it. Sticking with a cripplingly poor engine supplier and in turn destroying the team and a number of drivers is not going to be good. Either Honda buck their ideas up, or McLaren need to get shot of them. If they are still at the back next year and Ron still persists with the Honda deal then that will be the time to call time on his reign.
 
McLaren could change engine and be a works team...if all the redbulll/renault talk is bang on then renault are currently without a works team.

Renault have said that they want to either own their own team or be out of F1 because they dont get the recognitian they deserve, however seeing how through this whole year you cant mention Mclaren without Honda being mentioned, surely Renault would have their praise platform right there!

Honda would need to bail on F1 if Mclaren moved on or would they just do what renault are trying to do and buy lotus/manor?!

Oh what an interesting twist that would be:
2016 Mclaren Renault
Honda works team (buying out lotus)
Redbull Ferrari (customer engine)
Toro Rosso Ferrari (customer engine)
Haas Ferrari (Ferrari test car so possibly better than customer engine but not quite works)
Manor Mercedes

Now that would make things interesting. Imagine if Haas came on board and started beating redbull after their year long regulation free development period hahah....
 
Renault are already saying they don't want to be an engine supplier, regardless of works status that is still supplying an engine. They want to either be out of F1 or buy a team, the third option was staying in as a supplier and in the past few days they appear to have made their stance clear about that not being an option any more.

Obviously these situations can take a long time to negotiate but leaving Lotus hanging in the wind and frankly continually producing cars that break at a particularly heavy gust of wind. If they just did the deal a few months ago and gave them 20mil to have the management focus on the team rather than financial problems and find solutions to reliability issues they would be a stronger team going into next season both in level of car, confidence in the team and Lotus could fight for a higher position in the constructors.

Just seems short sighted to take so long and leaving Lotus in trouble every race, it's not going to help them anyway. I do wonder if they are waiting to do a Manor. Let them fold, let as much debt disappear as possible then take over the scraps of the team. Hire who they want out of Lotus and it's a cheap way to not keep the people you don't want. It would certainly be a cheaper way to do it, no way is it the best way to enter next season as strong as possible.
 
They're really taking their bat home!

Didn't McLaren say when they signed with Honda that they wouldn't ever use customer engines as they want to be seen as a 'top team' and top teams should be works teams? Not really working out for them.
 
dannyjo22 said:
Brawn did it and created a better car than Mclaren have in 16 years. I guess that's the difference between Brawns attitude and ability to get stuff done and Ron's safe approach, an nice conservative approach.

To me Mclaren seems in dire need of a major clear out, to get rid of that old mclaren way of doing things. They need new leadership.
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Brawn was with Honda........ well over a full season before Honda pulled out / changing names over the winter of 08 (actually joined in Nov 07 according to Wiki, so certainly had a full year to develop what became the Brawn chassis.....all paid for of course with Honda money before they pulled out)

Not exactly like they designed , tested and raced it all in one winter which seems to be what you are implying (and during that time they had more in season testing wth engines that had been around years / decades etc etc)

Remember just because the Brawn had a different liverie (and a retro fitted merc engine) the developement of the car had been going for years (not to mention the double diffuser, the single huge advantage they had for 4+ months, was actually discussed in one of the technical meeting groups during the previous season - so it wasnt all down to Brawn anyway)
 
Skeeter said:
I think we need to give them a bit of slack. Had Honda produced a decent engine we would have all been saying what a brilliant and inspired decision they made..
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If Lamborghini had built a decent engine, if Peugeot had etc etc. It doesn't matter what might have been. It's the same as BAR, everyone wet themselves over the Senna Honda days and they plodded around the paddock, insular from the other team members getting beaten by Mugen.


FrankJH said:
Brawn was with Honda........ well over a full season before Honda pulled out / changing names over the winter of 08 (actually joined in Nov 07 according to Wiki, so certainly had a full year to develop what became the Brawn chassis.....all paid for of course with Honda money before they pulled out)

Not exactly like they designed , tested and raced it all in one winter which seems to be what you are implying (and during that time they had more in season testing wth engines that had been around years / decades etc etc)

Remember just because the Brawn had a different liverie (and a retro fitted merc engine) the developement of the car had been going for years (not to mention the double diffuser, the single huge advantage they had for 4+ months, was actually discussed in one of the technical meeting groups during the previous season - so it wasnt all down to Brawn anyway)
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I wasn't implying anything, I was responding to the comments about changing the engine for next year. Brawn did it within months, it doesn't matter that the car was designed for years or when Brawn joined, at no time was that car designed around anything other than a Honda engine but within a few months they slapped a merc in, lost a load of of personal and with a limited budget or ability to improve a car not designed to be paired with a merc won the title. Saying Brawn was there a year before, so what. Who else has got a job done that quickly? People like to use excuses about a car being more suited to a team mate or designed around say vettels feedback. Well that whole car was designed around the Honda and I think you are vastly under estimating how big a deal that is.

I'd bet everything I had, even with 2 years of design if Mclaren were given the Merc engine for next year in november they couldn't get near doing what Brawn did despite having better funding. Hell they got beat themselves by Brawn with the same engine.
 
If they found a loophole as big as the one Brawn did, they would. The double diffuser was the only thing that kept that car at the front. As soon as the other teams implemented it Brawn's advantage was gone.
 
timmeh said:
If they found a loophole as big as the one Brawn did, they would. The double diffuser was the only thing that kept that car at the front. As soon as the other teams implemented it Brawn's advantage was gone.
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The point is they don't. They are slow to innovate and react. They are always playing catch up even when they finish a season with a strong car.

Again it's IF's. "If they found a loop hole like the DD".

It wasn't just the DD being implemented that stopped Brawn being the best all year. They barely did anything with the car from June onwards, other teams developed their car, it's been mentioned many time Brawn just ran out of performance and developement with the car. They had a team where the workforce had been decimated against all the ability of Newey and Red Bulls money. Meanwhile Mclaren faffed about with Kers. :D
 
Having only just started following F1 again after a few years out, could someone kindly explain in a nutshell, how Mercedes have it so right, how Honda have it so wrong, why Bernie is still in charge, why the FIA can't see that too much aero is making overtaking difficult, and how on earth is that Maldonado character still allowed to play dodgems with the rest of the field?

Thanks :)

Jay
 
Psi Jay said:
Having only just started following F1 again after a few years out, could someone kindly explain in a nutshell, how Mercedes have it so right
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Money.

Psi Jay said:
how Honda have it so wrong
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Arrogance.

Psi Jay said:
why Bernie is still in charge
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Money.

Psi Jay said:
why the FIA can't see that too much aero is making overtaking difficult
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Arrogance.

Psi Jay said:
and how on earth is that Maldonado character still allowed to play dodgems with the rest of the field?
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Money.
 
So reading up on the engine shenanigans, worst case Renault don't buy Lotus and they go bust, and STR and RBR are forced to leave as they can't get engines. 8 teams left next year :(.

It will be interesting to see if the 3rd car idea pops up again...
 
Where are you getting 8 teams from? There are 10 teams now, Haas are joining next year, Lotus might not be with us, absolute worse case scenario is losing Lotus and Manor and gaining Haas. Manor don't look in immediate danger of folding and as almost the entire paddock isn't really discussing the possibility of Lotus not being around next year it seems like a foregone conclusion it's happening.

It seems like Renault are playing hardball with how much control the current Lotus guy has, how much they'll cost and how much they'll get from Bernie. With a few races struggling for any racing this year, I'm talking specifically of ones where we had like 5-6 cars engines fail to some degree, a few crashes and a DNS. Bernie knows the sport needs another team as opposed to losing one so I don't think he'll mind giving Renault historical payments to keep them in.

Also Lotus are doing on a relatively small budget a very impressive job, if Marussia had interest in being taken over I can't imagine there isn't someone else interested in Lotus. The lack of rumours of other potential buyers or investors for Lotus again makes me think everyone believes Renault is taking them over.
 
Nah Lotus are full of financial b/s remember the bloke a year or so ago that was going to conjure up loads of cash, no where to be seen now.

Renault probably would like to buy Lotus, but the finances are a shambles.
 
Skeeter said:
Lol, so right. :D
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Yeah, I do occasionally post something half decent in-between 'tedious'* diatribes about the depths that this sport has sunk into....;)






* - hey look, I got it right this time!
 
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The lack of respect they have shown Renault is frankly sickening. I'd love VW in F1 but they way they have been about a 'partner' I think VW should look elsewhere. Renault got it wrong before with the much wider angle V that it's competitors but they bounced back.

In recent history they won 6 on the trot then 4. Red bull should be ****ing grateful and shut the **** up. A pathetic attitude to one of the best engine supplier of modern F1.
 
Would Renault have broken even supplying engines all these years?

I'd guess they were selling them at a loss? It would make Red Bull's 'it's just business' comment wrong as it implies Renault have invested in the team by selling the engines for no profit.

Mercedes and Ferrari I guess might make money on engines sold, as they would be designing engines whether they had buyers or not.
 
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dannyjo22 said:
It wasn't just the DD being implemented that stopped Brawn being the best all year
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They were CLEARLY not the best all year - they were barely the best for 5 months which is why they went further and further back during and after the summer

It was only because of the huge lead they had from the beginning of the season that JB got the title

Wonders where with the new tech Merc this year would be with a retro fitted engine that lost similar amounts to the Brawn - I would be pretty amazed if they were even in the midpack even with their current performance advantage

No-one can afford to give that kind of performance away in the current situation, it just wouldn't be viable



I would LOVE VW in F1 (and actually think F1 NEEDS VW/Audi/Porsche as much as VW should be there) but cant think of a worse team to go with - although it sounds like it was inevitable given the current links with the drinks company RB (rather than the team).
 
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