Motorsport Off Topic Thread

Scam · 22 Oct 2022 at 12:56

I think handling this behind closed doors is absolutely the worst thing the FIA could do. Loses the trust of the fans even more, let alone the other teams will be left wondering if a future breach might be worth it etc. It’d be about as dumb as Boris coming back as PM

cuke2u · 22 Oct 2022 at 13:10

Scam said:
I think handling this behind closed doors is absolutely the worst thing the FIA could do. Loses the trust of the fans even more, let alone the other teams will be left wondering if a future breach might be worth it etc. It’d be about as dumb as Boris coming back as PM

Certainly they need to end the speculation and gossip..

Tigget · 22 Oct 2022 at 13:35

Scam said:
I think handling this behind closed doors is absolutely the worst thing the FIA could do. Loses the trust of the fans even more, let alone the other teams will be left wondering if a future breach might be worth it etc. It’d be about as dumb as Boris coming back as PM

I agree, details should at least be released afterwards. However, again, as I've mentioned about other FIA related stuff - the FIA have already set a precedent for certain things being settled behind closed doors, like the Ferrari scandal. FIA have just handled the whole thing poorly tbh, even the leaks from inside their organisation before the announcements happened about breaches. Although there's absolutely nothing shocking about the FIA being useless, unfortunately.

Mr Jack · 22 Oct 2022 at 17:43

Williams confirm that Logan will drive for them in '23 if he gets the superlicense points. That should be pretty guaranteed, but anything can happen in F2. That leaves just the Haas seat up in the air, I believe.

Ninco! · 22 Oct 2022 at 22:53

Watching a BBC documentary based on the Le Mans disaster of 1955. A horrific accident, the documentary made back in 2010, goes someway to explain the accident. To this day is one of the best BBC documentaries; rarely repeated on iPlayer.

The sound track, pace, and the growling cars is highly recommended.

I drive through Farnham every week and past the cemetery, there is one grave clearly visible, which constantly has flowers and guess its Hawthorn's. Got to stop and pay respects.

Scam · 23 Oct 2022 at 10:07

Sounds like FIA have offered RB 25% loss of wind tunnel time and a fine. But RB won’t take it as they have to admit guilt. Absolutely ridiculous if true. I couldn’t think of a more lenient punishment if I tried! :rolleyes:

Hopefully the RB arrogance will mean they don’t take the deal, instead argue until they’re blue in the face, and end up losing drivers points for 2021

Jono8 · 23 Oct 2022 at 10:51

Scam said:
Sounds like FIA have offered RB 25% loss of wind tunnel time and a fine. But RB won’t take it as they have to admit guilt. Absolutely ridiculous if true. I couldn’t think of a more lenient punishment if I tried!

Hopefully the RB arrogance will mean they don’t take the deal, instead argue until they’re blue in the face, and end up losing drivers points for 2021

If thats the punishment, i imagine most of the big teams will just break the budget cap from here on.

I think they need clearly defined punishments. Ie - you break it, you lost 20% of your drivers and constructors points or something.

Mr Jack · 23 Oct 2022 at 11:20

Scam said:
Sounds like FIA have offered RB 25% loss of wind tunnel time and a fine. But RB won’t take it as they have to admit guilt. Absolutely ridiculous if true. I couldn’t think of a more lenient punishment if I tried!

25% wind tunnel penalty is a long way from a slap of a wrist. It would have a substantial impact on RB's ability to develop in '23 and '24.

Jono8 said:
I think they need clearly defined punishments. Ie - you break it, you lost 20% of your drivers and constructors points or something.

The reason they don't have such punishments is because they'd simply become a cost of business. Running with a full Merc/Ferrari/RB budget vs. the budget cap level would easily be worth a 20% penalty, so they'd just do it. I do think they should have set clearer guidelines for it, and that some penalties are off limit on an ABA offer is a mistake.

JRS · 23 Oct 2022 at 11:21

RBR and the FIA have agreed on a penalty now, according to Auto Motor und Sport. But the announcement of the terms has been postponed out of respect for the passing of Dietrich Mateschitz.

Journey · 23 Oct 2022 at 12:30

JRS said:
RBR and the FIA have agreed on a penalty now,

That wording is disastrous, the guilty party have agreed how to be punished? Maybe we should start asking anyone who breaks rules or the law how they feel they should be punished.

Bazzards · 23 Oct 2022 at 12:31

Sounds like one of the races last season. With the race director making an offer of punishment to red bull.

Mr Jack · 23 Oct 2022 at 12:45

Journey said:
That wording is disastrous, the guilty party have agreed how to be punished? Maybe we should start asking anyone who breaks rules or the law how they feel they should be punished.

Plea deals are a thing. I think there is merit in having an agreed outcome rather than acrimoniously going through the courts, but the procedure really needs to be clear. The FIA panel need to explain precisely why they chose the punishment and what the discussion with Red Bull entailed. There can be no negotiation here, only a fair offer and acceptance or not of that offer.

Bazzards said:
Sounds like one of the races last season. With the race director making an offer of punishment to red bull.

Except he didn't. The Race Director gave RB the option of giving the place back under red flag and thus avoiding a penalty. Had they continued without the flag, the team would have been asked to give the place back on track but that wasn't possible so they sorted it out under red. I really don't know why people make a big deal out of this.

Journey · 23 Oct 2022 at 12:56

Mr Jack said:
Plea deals are a thing.

They should not be in a sport with a clearly defined rule, you have this much to spend, don't spend more than that or you will be punished. We don't care if that is on sandwiches, bus fares, hookers, carbon fiber or boat shoes.

Allowing negotiation is stupid, it only protects the guilty party.

Mr Jack · 23 Oct 2022 at 13:11

Journey said:
Allowing negotiation is stupid, it only protects the guilty party.

Well, yes, I agree:

Mr Jack said:
There can be no negotiation here, only a fair offer and acceptance or not of that offer.

But the ABA system isn't supposed to be a negotiation, it's supposed to be a means to handle more minor infractions without acrimony and litigation.

Journey · 23 Oct 2022 at 13:43

Breaking a fixed budget cap isn't minor though.

Bazzards · 23 Oct 2022 at 13:49

This was the perfect opportunity for the FIA to stamp their authority, looks like they are going to take the easy way out.

If 9 other teams can stay under the cost cap, then so could Red Bull. They had every opportunity to ask questions, but didn’t, they were relying on this exact situation where the penalty can be negotiated and the FIA have fallen for it. Makes even more of a mockery of the sport tbh.

As others have said, they need to make a decision on whether it is to be a sport or just entertainment.

MissChief · 23 Oct 2022 at 14:07

It’s gone from a few million over to now a few hundred thousand and from catering and extra development to a change in the rules halfway through the season around used parts that can be used on show cars. Having said that, 25% reduction in wind tunnel time, given how limited it already is, is a fairly big punishment. It’s just unlikely to affect anything this season and maybe even have little impact on next season given the work they will have already out in on next years car.

Mr Jack · 23 Oct 2022 at 14:17

Journey said:
Breaking a fixed budget cap isn't minor though.

The level of breach is defined in the rules as a "minor breach", and the ABA system isn't available for the more major breaches. Personally, I think the top end of "minor" is a pretty major breach, but there we go. As yet, though, we still don't know how much the actual breach is.

bayo000 · 23 Oct 2022 at 14:30

Mr Jack said:
The level of breach is defined in the rules as a "minor breach", and the ABA system isn't available for the more major breaches. Personally, I think the top end of "minor" is a pretty major breach, but there we go. As yet, though, we still don't know how much the actual breach is.

That's the worst thing about this. Minor breach should be up to 1% (2% tops). When we're talking ~£140mil cap then 5% is a lot of money to be considered a minor overspend.

Do we think we ever find out how much they overspend by?

Scam · 23 Oct 2022 at 17:01

Mr Jack said:
25% wind tunnel penalty is a long way from a slap of a wrist. It would have a substantial impact on RB's ability to develop in '23 and '24.

Shame they already overspent and cheated to gain the biggest advantage for when the regs changed. Now the regs are locked in I’m sure they can survive at the front with 25% less wind time.

Bazzards said:
Sounds like one of the races last season. With the race director making an offer of punishment to red bull.

Indeed. RB are nothing but snakes in this sport, I don’t understand why the FIA let’s them get away with it. I’m glad Toto called out CH’s comments today, trying to play the victim because they got caught. Honestly..