Motorsport Off Topic Thread

Slam62 said:
I’m surprised she is still going with this and hasn’t just taken a pay off. It seems like she really intends to end up in a proper court.
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For what, unfair dismissal?

What do you think Horner might have done that's actually illegal? Being a bit firty with a PA isn't.

This looks more like an internal power play at Red Bull. I wonder if Horner and the Thai owners wanted to retire Marko.
 
Mr Jack said:
Power dynamics and sex can easily cross legal lines. And what Horner was doing hardly falls under "a bit flirty".
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Which bit, the WhatsApp messages?

Having an affair with a colleague isn't illegal, cheating on your wife isn't illegal. Is there any evidence of that even so? I doubt Geri would be sticking round if there was.

Your blinkered hatred is overriding your logical brains.
 
Bug One said:
Which bit, the WhatsApp messages?
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Would you really describe the contents of those messages as "a bit flirty"? Come on, be serious.

Bug One said:
Having an affair with a colleague isn't illegal, cheating on your wife isn't illegal. Is there any evidence of that even so? I doubt Geri would be sticking round if there was.
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Having an affair isn't, but pressuring a junior for sex does fall under workplace regulation, and can even be criminal.

Since she seems to be pursuing this, it seems that she believes lines have been crossed. Perhaps, if this is dealt with more competently than RB managed, we can get some closure and stop having to talk about this drekk.

Your blinkered hatred is overriding your logical brains.
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Your blinkered inability to understand this as anything other than a partisan squabble over sport is overriding your ability to even read.
 
Slam62 said:
Hmm so according to Andrew Benson at the bbc, there have been 2 complaints to the fia so far concerning Horners behaviour. Mr MBS stated there had been no complaints and Horner is his friend.
I’m surprised she is still going with this and hasn’t just taken a pay off. It seems like she really intends to end up in a proper court.
If so they have massively misjudged the situation.
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Fair play to her. Perhaps she knows that if she doesn’t win then her own career is toast. So she needs to exonerate herself as much as possible. Or genuinely feels badly treated and isn’t after cash to make it go away.
Bug One said:
Having an affair with a colleague isn't illegal,
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Except Horner pays her salary.. And paying someone with the expectation of hanky panky is. See how easily the lines blur? This is exactly why it never ends well for people at the top of companies sleeping with their underlings.
 
b0rn2sk8 said:
The above still doesn’t make it illegal on its own….
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Neither does Horner pay anyone's salary.
So has anyone had access to the inquiry and all the evidence presented? Aside from some, possibly, faked messages no-one here has any evidence either way but there certainly is zero stating he bonked anyone, nothing what so ever.
Still it seems that some cannot accept that an independent barrister from the highest courts in our country cleared Horner of any wrongdoing yet there still appears to be a non acceptance of the truth as we know it. Is it then that some feel there investigation was flawed in some way, a kind of conspiracy :cry:

This is what we actually do know however I guess some, probably just hypocrites, who have nothing better to do in their lives, wish to invent something.

Of course the person subject to this independent inquiry can appeal the decision, that is their right and how it works. However they don't appear to have a strong argument at all and perhaps should stop whilst they still have any dignity left as they could end up making themselves totally unemployable.
 
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cuke2u said:
perhaps should stop whilst they still have any dignity left as they could end up making themselves totally unemployable.
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Interesting you say the woman is in danger of losing her dignity yet Horner, the millionaire CEO of the company, married to a pop star, at the pinnacle of his career, living a life of luxury - who has clearly resorted to *some* extra-curricular activities with a subordinate - is coming up golden? Interesting take…

Again, your attitude is exactly why companies frown (or more) on senior staff getting involved with junior staff.
 
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Scam said:
Interesting you say the woman is in danger of losing her dignity yet Horner, the millionaire CEO of the company, married to a pop star, at the pinnacle of his career, living a life of luxury - who has clearly resorted to *some* extra-curricular activities with a subordinate - is coming up golden? Interesting take…

Again, your attitude is exactly why companies frown (or more) on senior staff getting involved with junior staff.
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LOL...
Yet you have not a single shred of evidence to back up your completely absurd agenda. Yet you do very much appear to be jealous of Horner's lifestyle.
But what we do have is the evidence that an independent investigation was carried out by a barrister from the highest courts in the UK which has cleared Horner of any wrongdoing, which you and others seem to completely ignore.
You couldn't make it up, oh but you just did, and again. Unfortunately it is you that is in a denial of the facts.

But please do show me any evidence that supports your conclusions.

Facts are what we have to go on, not some sad ramblings of a bitter and twisted individual who has nothing better to do in their pitiful lives.
You can't even seem to get the facts right that Horner is also an employee of Red Bull, thus he pays no-one any salary. He is not the owner..
 
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Bug One said:
For what, unfair dismissal?

What do you think Horner might have done that's actually illegal? Being a bit firty with a PA isn't.

This looks more like an internal power play at Red Bull. I wonder if Horner and the Thai owners wanted to retire Marko.
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Look mate I’ve got no idea, but the timeline just follows the classic company grievance process, raise it internally, appeal, in this case raise it through another body who may have a say, if you have exhausted all other things, take it to court.

We have seen the the rather lewd messages, but we don’t know if that was all that happened.

As I said I am surprised she has taken it this far and not been paid off, but she may end up being exonerated and paid off. The real negotiations happen just before it goes to court.

As you say, she or someone wants Horner out. (Possibly)
 
cuke2u said:
LOL...
Yet you have not a single shred of evidence to back up your completely absurd agenda. Yet you do very much appear to be jealous of Horner's lifestyle.
But what we do have is the evidence that an independent investigation was carried out by a barrister from the highest courts in the UK which has cleared Horner of any wrongdoing, which you and others seem to completely ignore.
You couldn't make it up, oh but you just did, and again. Unfortunately it is you that is in a denial of the facts.

But please do show me any evidence that supports your conclusions.

Facts are what we have to go on, not some sad ramblings of a bitter and twisted individual who has nothing better to do in their pitiful lives.
You can't even seem to get the facts right that Horner is also an employee of Red Bull, thus he pays no-one any salary. He is not the owner..
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We cannot make any judgment of fact we are not privy to the facts. All we know is that as I understand it she has appealed the decision and appealed to the fia, the problem for RB is that even if they think they can win, do they want it all out in the open and what is the risk of them losing.
How we judge what we know is unimportant, the process is what matters and how far she is prepared to go.
 
Slam62 said:
We cannot make any judgment of fact we are not privy to the facts. All we know is that as I understand it she has appealed the decision and appealed to the fia, the problem for RB is that even if they think they can win, do they want it all out in the open and what is the risk of them losing.
How we judge what we know is unimportant, the process is what matters and how far she is prepared to go.
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I agree, it's a lot of 'if's' though. As far as has been reported she originally made a complaint about Horner's coercive behaviour, nothing sexual has ever been suggested by her at all and she is also angry she not been allowed to see the full report produced by the independent barrister that cleared Horner. But then neither has Horner been allowed to either, thus she's appealed against the findings.
We have these flimsy messages that could have easily been put together by anyone. Perhaps it could be someone who works in the film and media industry who has a strong grudge against Horner, anyone springs to mind?
However if they are true and she was part of them being sent out then her position could be very much weakened.

The whole thing has become very messy but how they all can resolve it with the politics, the media involved, then there is the juvenile gossiping, no-one knows. But one way out would be for Horner to resign from Red Bull. However some would see that as proof of guilt on his part.
 
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I am not sure what is and isn't legal but I have seen plenty of people sacked for similar things in the work place. I guess a lot here are either self employed or haven't worked in the big corporate workplace. I was responsible for disciplinary's and hearings at my old place and it was never nice.

"Bringing the company into disrepute" and "gross misconduct" are just some examples. You sign a contract in the end for the work place and if you breach that you are at risk of being sacked.

Obviously you can appeal and go it that way but you can get sacked quite easily for doing nothing illegal.

If I am a prospective employee looking for work and I know that the guy at the top is playing around it is going to put me off and I will be placing my CV elsewhere.
 
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cuke2u said:
LOL... (snip)
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I’m started to wonder if you’re actually Christian Horner in disguise. Your over the top defence of him is becoming embarrassing. Insulting me because I point out your terrible attitude to the woman bringing the complaint..

You keep mentioning a barrister from the “highest court in the land” like it’s medieval times :D As far as I know this barrister hasn’t even been named so it’s Red Bull’s word that he/she is qualified. So no wonder people aren’t happy with the results of that “investigation “ because it was 9hrs long, we don’t know who did it, and we don’t know the outcome.
 
Scam said:
I’m started to wonder if you’re actually Christian Horner in disguise. Your over the top defence of him is becoming embarrassing. Insulting me because I point out your terrible attitude to the woman bringing the complaint..

You keep mentioning a barrister from the “highest court in the land” like it’s medieval times :D As far as I know this barrister hasn’t even been named so it’s Red Bull’s word that he/she is qualified. So no wonder people aren’t happy with the results of that “investigation “ because it was 9hrs long, we don’t know who did it, and we don’t know the outcome.
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I suggest you read this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King's_Counsel as the barrister is a member of the King Council. Naming the barrister, what with people like you around?
Are you going to submit the evidence as requested to support your accusations against Horner, both recent and historical, or have you none?
 
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Just because something isn’t illegal doesn’t make it immoral or not an abuse of power. It seems that many people here wouldn’t have issue with a CEO or Director sending unwanted flirty, vulgar or sexual messages to their husband or wife because after all, it’s not illegal.
 
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Barristers who defend murderers, paedophiles, and rapists are named. I don't buy the idea that naming a barrister who investigates a team principal is a risk.

By hiding basic facts like these, Red Bull are not helping their investigation be seen as credible.
 
MissChief said:
Just because something isn’t illegal doesn’t make it immoral or not an abuse of power. It seems that many people here wouldn’t have issue with a CEO or Director sending unwanted flirty, vulgar or sexual messages to their husband or wife because after all, it’s not illegal.
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You're going a tad over the top now. We are discussing Horner and the accusation of controlling behaviour and it has not been established that it is of a sexual nature at all. Controlling behaviour from either men, or women, can take many forms.

To once again sit on the fence, it could just easily turn out that Horner is the victim not necessarily the perpetrator.
We don't know for sure anything, aside from so far Horner has been exonerated of any behaviour, thus, as far as I'm concerned conclusions cannot be drawn.
 
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