New and shocking footage of British troops torturing Iraqis...

Sleepy · 15 Feb 2006 at 13:17

cleanbluesky said:
I think there is reason to believe that such threats were sincere, although whether they were imminent depends on what timeframe you would wish to use...

Do you think it would be okay to tell someone that you are going to kill them on an indefinite timescale or perhaps that you intend to kill them over a period of time?

No, but we have to be talking about a specific threat from a group/individual to a specific target, not society in general.

Overlag · 15 Feb 2006 at 13:18

dirtydog said:
I knew someone would say that :/ You'll support it till the police beat you up for speeding or littering anyway.

you shouldnt be speeding or littering.

the totaly lack of respect in this country is starting to be its downful.

ok maybe i wont support being beaten up for simple crimes, however we need to PUNISH people that do things wrong in the country... and im talking kids too...

However if you are a drunken idiot thats squaring up to a police officer id agree he needs a good kicking.

dirtydog · 15 Feb 2006 at 13:20

Overlag said:
you shouldnt be speeding or littering.

the totaly lack of respect in this country is starting to be its downful.

ok maybe i wont support being beaten up for simple crimes, however we need to PUNISH people that do things wrong in the country... and im talking kids too...

However if you are a drunken idiot thats squaring up to a police officer id agree he needs a good kicking.

The police do not determine or carry out the punishment in a civilised country. Nor do soldiers - that is for the courts to decide.

Sleepy · 15 Feb 2006 at 13:20

Balddog said:
'Kill all those who insult islam' is not a death threat, it is incitement...If it were a death threat it would be 'I will kill all those who insult Islam'..The wording is clearly an imperative.

err what are we discussing?

Tom0 · 15 Feb 2006 at 14:13

Sleepy said:
IF somethings 2 years old it may be history but it doesn't make it either false or twisted.

Depending on which way you look at it, why now? why not before? why not censor it out anyway like most of the stuff that goes on over there... I dont believe anything in the news about the war.

cleanbluesky · 15 Feb 2006 at 14:27

Borris said:
Discipline is what you dish out in schools.

It is what you do to your own children.

As an occupying force, it is not part of your remit.

Discipline: control gained by enforcing obedience or order

Sounds like the soldier's actions was was discipline to me...

cleanbluesky · 15 Feb 2006 at 14:30

Sleepy said:
No, but we have to be talking about a specific threat from a group/individual to a specific target, not society in general.

I think a credible threat to society should be taken even more seriously because of the potential effect it has shown...

You also have to ask yourself what sort of 'credible' protest could involve issuing a credible threat against society in general on behalf of an organisation

Shifter_Hull · 15 Feb 2006 at 14:43

make me sick that these guy will get a long prison sentence indeed but let face it
you see a lot of your best dying and you capture or find these guy and your fustration comes out and bingo these happens i feel sorry for them

Sleepy · 15 Feb 2006 at 14:43

cleanbluesky said:
I think a credible threat to society should be taken even more seriously because of the potential effect it has shown...

You also have to ask yourself what sort of 'credible' protest could involve issuing a credible threat against society in general on behalf of an organisation

To an extent we're arguing semantics here. Society is not a person(s) or buildings its a concept, so it cant be threatened with violence. Obviously the people, buildings etc of a society can be threatened and they should be protected by reasonable laws.

aumz · 15 Feb 2006 at 14:53

Shifter_Hull said:
make me sick that these guy will get a long prison sentence indeed but let face it
you see a lot of your best dying and you capture or find these guy and your fustration comes out and bingo these happens i feel sorry for them

So thats an excuse now just frustration, so If im ever in court for GBH could I also use that sort of pathetic excuse.

They acted as Judge and Jury when all they should have done was capture/arrest simple as that.

The image they send out is that the British Army is just full of yobs.

cleanbluesky · 15 Feb 2006 at 14:54

Sleepy said:
To an extent we're arguing semantics here. Society is not a person(s) or buildings its a concept, so it cant be threatened with violence. Obviously the people, buildings etc of a society can be threatened and they should be protected by reasonable laws.

Society is nothing without the group of individuals that compose it - threatening to behead members of society who oppose an ideology is a clear death threat and completely unnacceptable both legally and morally. I personally would like to have seen a ballet of handcuffs as an answer to those placards. Perhaps then we could live in a country whereby justice is more tangible and less political and whereby everyone get treated equally once more...

Nix · 15 Feb 2006 at 14:57

cleanbluesky said:
Society is nothing without the group of individuals that compose it - threatening to behead members of society who oppose an ideology is a clear death threat and completely unnacceptable both legally and morally. I personally would like to have seen a ballet of handcuffs as an answer to those placards. Perhaps then we could live in a country whereby justice is more tangible and less political and whereby everyone get treated equally once more...

I agree totally.

I wonder when some numpty is going to start crying out "but their morals are different!" or "who's to say what's morally correct?" Damn pop-philosphy! :mad:

Borris · 15 Feb 2006 at 15:08

cleanbluesky said:
Discipline: control gained by enforcing obedience or order

Sounds like the soldier's actions was was discipline to me...

Definitions aside, it's not the job of a soldier to mete out justice, punishment or this particular flavour of discipline.

Sleepy · 15 Feb 2006 at 15:11

cleanbluesky said:
Society is nothing without the group of individuals that compose it - threatening to behead members of society who oppose an ideology is a clear death threat and completely unnacceptable both legally and morally.

You're being abtuse now. "Society" is a collective noun in that it incorperates people, ethics, buildings nations laws etc. You cannot physically threaten a society, cos there is nothing to actually threaten. As I said before you can threaten violence on the people, and buildings and possessions thats not in dispute.

I personally would like to have seen a ballet of handcuffs as an answer to those placards. Perhaps then we could live in a country whereby justice is more tangible and less political and whereby everyone get treated equally once more...

Yeah cos violence allways solves every problem and never inflames an issue or creates new problems.

cleanbluesky · 15 Feb 2006 at 15:30

Sleepy said:
You're being abtuse now. "Society" is a collective noun in that it incorperates people, ethics, buildings nations laws etc. You cannot physically threaten a society, cos there is nothing to actually threaten. As I said before you can threaten violence on the people, and buildings and possessions thats not in dispute.

the term society is a construction that the said society uses to recognise itself, also - something needs to be living in order for it to be killed, and it needs a head for it to be beheaded... on the premise of those two ideas the particular aspect of 'society' which was being threatened is fairly clear

Yeah cos violence allways solves every problem and never inflames an issue or creates new problems.

Arresting people doesn't arbitrarily mean violence ensues, nor should the threat of violence be a reason that a criminal is not arrested or a crime not persued

cleanbluesky · 15 Feb 2006 at 15:31

Borris said:
Definitions aside, it's not the job of a soldier to mete out justice, punishment or this particular flavour of discipline.

What happened had nothing to do with concepts as grand or organised as justice or judicial punishment (because 'punishment' alone has many meanings and can apply in many ways here) - but this falvour of discipline (or behavioural modification) is vital to the continued survival of the soldiers...

Borris · 15 Feb 2006 at 15:37

cleanbluesky said:
What happened had nothing to do with concepts as grand or organised as justice or judicial punishment (because 'punishment' alone has many meanings and can apply in many ways here) - but this falvour of discipline (or behavioural modification) is vital to the continued survival of the soldiers...

"Teaching a lesson" to the natives is still not within a soldier's remit, and is hardly vital to their survival.

If anything, alienating the locals with acts of thuggery would be more likely to heighten tension.

The kids that were beaten aren't naughty puppies that peed on the carpet, and the British military is not there to modify anyone's behaviour.

theleg · 15 Feb 2006 at 15:42

Sleepy said:
err what are we discussing?

Um....youve been arguing something and you dont know what youre arguing about?

We are discussing the offensive placards at the demonstration.

cleanbluesky · 15 Feb 2006 at 15:43

Borris said:
"Teaching a lesson" to the natives is still not within a soldier's remit, and is hardly vital to their survival.

If anything, alienating the locals with acts of thuggery would be more likely to heighten tension.

The kids that were beaten aren't naughty puppies that peed on the carpet, and the British military is not there to modify anyone's behaviour.

BEHAVIOUR CONTROL of the enemy is a fairly useful skill... you seem strangely unfamiliar with the concept of war, not that I am much moer familiar - just more unwilling to use the video as a benchmark for the merit of my own values by projecting scenarios and innapropriate connotations on it

Sleepy · 15 Feb 2006 at 15:46

Balddog said:
Um....youve been arguing something and you dont know what youre arguing about?

We are discussing the offensive placards at the demonstration.

I don't believe that there was an actual point of contention in the matter we were discussing.