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New rider do's and dont's

Discussion in 'Biker's Cafe' started by NoNameNoNumber, Jul 28, 2015.

  1. ttaskmaster

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Sep 11, 2013

    Posts: 9,858

    No.
    My argument is that you cannot justify going into a more dangerous position under the pretense that it mitigates another risk, particularly when the risk from remaining in the first position is far less likely than the consequences associated with your new position.
    That's like climbing above the parapet in front of a load of machine gunners, in case someone in your trench slips and stabs you with their bayonet.

    Moreover, this is a new rider thread, where people are advocating that everyone filter right to the front and then blaze away as fast as possible in order to (hopefully, but with no guarantee) beat whatever vehicle is leading, while assuming that every possible bike they might have is capable of such...

    This advice is irresponsible, retarded, dangerous and I would call Troll, but I get the impression it's actually being spoken seriously...

    All I hope is that such people ride WELL the **** away from me if they ride like this!
     
  2. NoNameNoNumber

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 25, 2009

    Posts: 4,848

    I did wonder if we'd perhaps strayed a little from the OP although to be honest I'm more than happy to see differing opinions on motorcycling in general... More than one way to skin a cat and all that :)
     
  3. Sin_Chase

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jan 13, 2004

    Posts: 20,539

    Do what you are told to do to pass your test. After that adopt what you feel comfortable with.

    Passing your test will teach you left foot down right foot on brake. Advance riding courses will teach you the complete opposite. (Depending on institute. I'll stick with road-craft as it's what I am taught)
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2015
  4. TallPaul_S

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 24, 2011

    Posts: 5,781

    Location: Kent

    lol

    Bikes, yep - 3 seconds for any 100+bhp bike, 4-5 seconds for a 50-80bhp bike.

    4-7 seconds for cars? not unless you're alongside a 250-300BHP+ car, most cars are mundane things that struggle to hit 60mph in under 10 seconds.

    Put it this way - a VW Golf R, 30 grands worth of car, which you don't see very often (although they are becoming more popular), does 0-60 in the same time as my 50BHP 400cc bike (which isn't very fast). Now if one of these wanted to get away quicken than me, it would probably do it (4wd, 300bhp and all that). However, 99% of the time, at the front of the lights, is a VW polo/fiesta/any other regular car with a drive who's not really paying attention and who you'll be 500 yards away from in less than 3 seconds after you've accelerated briskly up to the speed limit. As for meeting a car that can do 0-60 in 2.8 seconds, not only would I filter alongside it, drooling while gawping at it, I'd encourage the drive to do a full bore start just so I could hear it :D

    Ride anything over 90-100bhp and you're faster than 99.9% of cars on the road.

    The difference is, when filtering, I'm choosing the situation. I'm controlling where I am on the road and what dangers i'm exposed too. When sat at the back of a queue of traffic, I'm completely out of control of what could happen to me. If Bob, who's been driving his 10 tonne artic for 8 hours straight, falls asleep at the wheel for 5 seconds and hits me at 40mph, the first thing I'll know about it will be as I hear the sound of death just behind me for enough time to **** my pants. Yet if I filter, yes I may be exposed to a driver switching lanes, or pulling out (but I'm in control of this, a good biker can sense and predict these things happening and ride accordingly) but I'll be a hell of a lot safer than sat at the back of queue. Filtering accidents tend to be slow speed stuff, which you walk away from. You won't walk away from a car smashing into the back of you at 40mph.

    Anyway, I'll it at this. Filtering IS safer, when done with care and defensively, than being sat at the back of a queue. Yes, you might sit at the back of a queue 100 times. But the 101st time you don't and doris drives into you at 40mph, you'll wish you'd have taken the slight bit of risk (which you can mitigate by riding properly) and filtered to the front of the queue. Hell, even midway down the queue. Just not sitting at the back! :D
     
  5. ttaskmaster

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Sep 11, 2013

    Posts: 9,858

    And what do you think new riders will likely be on?
    Some will still be on their 12-14bhp 125s.
    Others might go for a 650cc Cruiser, at 40bhp.
    There are plenty of bikes people will be on that cannot do insane speeds, or simply don't care to redline it away every single time.

    Serious??!!
    For starters, even many Land and Range Rovers are faster than that - Plenty of them out in commuter traffic!!

    Maybe in deepest darkest Kent...
    Certainly not here, in London, Hertfordshire, Brum, Manc, Bristol or any of the other places I go through regularly.

    And again, you're just making yourself out to be a moron - Encouraging other drivers to act like ***** now, too?

    That's still a lot of bike, especially for a new rider.
    You're also relying on speed alone, which removes all your other options.

    No you're not.
    You're choosing the higher risk. That is all.
    The situation changes at the whim of other drivers and you have virtually no control by comparison.

    You're choosing to sacrifice a full road's width for far less space, while greatly reducing your visibility to other drivers. You can only go where there is sufficient space, which is already limited and can change in fractions of a second.
    How is that control?

    Behind a car you have several avenues of escape (assuming you're not up their backside already) and up to several yards in which to do it.
    When filtering, you typically have just brakes and a few inches either side of you.

    You think you can predict what drivers will do, now?
    You trust your imaginary Spidey Senses?

    "Allow space for other drivers' errors, rather than trying to anticipate what they will do. There is no predicting and no anticipating. That is just guesswork on your part and if you continue, then one day you will guess horribly wrong".
    Advice from a Police riding instructor.

    I'm still waiting to hear some sagely advice on what wonderful 'safe' things your type do when you're the only vehicle at the lights and there's a car coming up behind you...

    I hear it's pretty hard to walk when your pelvis and legs have been crushed between two cars...

    Really?
    I got straight up and yelled obscenities at the one who hit me at about 60mph. I even have two forensics officers who witnessed it.

    Which is why so many advanced instructors say it's one of the most dangerous things a rider can do, but what the hell do THEY know, right!!

    You cannot defend your space when there's so little of it and when most drivers won't even have seen you.

    And you might filter down the same road 1000 times, but someone can still not see you and sideswipe you into the next vehicle over on the very 1st attempt...

    As is, I've sat happily in queues at least 3,500 times and not once been rear-ended, clipped, touched, nudged or had anything untoward from a driver behind me. Nor has any rider I've ever known, including several entire MCs in Kent.
    The only time I have been rear-ended was on a slight bend at night with oncoming traffic in a 40 limit and the driver was not paying attention.

    Various studies, including DfT, indicate that the vast majority of bike accidents occur in Right Of Way violations (pulling out on or turning into the bike), Filtering & Overtaking, and Losing Control On Bends.
    Rear-end shunts were typically into another vehicle and account for 9-11% (depending on study), most commonly with younger and inexperienced riders failing to bring their bikes to a controlled stop in adverse weather as the cause, NOT from another vehicle hitting them due to the drivers' fault.

    The bike being hit from behind OR hitting another vehicle from behind have a combined likelihood of 5.6%, compared to 77.1% from the other three mentioned above. Pulling out on the bike is 40% alone.

    So despite the overwhelming evidence, you think filtering to the lights is safer because it eliminates one very small concern while exposing you to a far greater one and requires riding like a **** to resolve...

    Good luck with that! :rolleyes:
     
  6. Trucamo

    Gangster

    Joined: Nov 7, 2013

    Posts: 254

    Location: Kent, England

    Are these studies conducted in places where filtering is legal? Perhaps the reason there were less rear-end shunts was precisely because a lot of bikes had filtered?
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2015
  7. Sin_Chase

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jan 13, 2004

    Posts: 20,539

    You quote a lot of studies. Do you even ride yourself? I get the impression you do not, seeing as you seem to believe many bikes will struggle or find it difficult to beat most cars off the line.

    It's not even a factor of outright power, even a 50cc twist and go will have MOST cars off the line in a safe and controlled manner. You do not even need to redline it away, a 50 or 125 will comfortable pull away from the front of traffic without causing undue delay to any car driver waiting and have filtered into the lane they wish to enter.

    It's very easy to comfortably pull away on a motorbike, up to speed with significantly more acceleration than a car safely. It's not like people are suggesting clutch dump wheelies off the line :confused:
     
  8. NoNameNoNumber

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 25, 2009

    Posts: 4,848

    I did I nice bit of filtering in a number of places last night, only past stopped cars at a lvl crossing and once at some lights I didn't want to wait at the back of.

    Both times I didn't dare ride to the front, pulled in a couple of cars back but it was pretty cool. I'm paranoid about getting stuck between a car and the central reservations and I'm still a little shakey at times on the slow speed stuff.
    Definitely improving every ride though.
    124 mpg too!

    Did my first hill start too, with traffic everywhere. Can't say I enjoyed that at all but it went reasonably well :)
     
  9. TripleT

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Oct 24, 2002

    Posts: 9,403

    Location: Manchester City Centre

    Nice, filtering will become second nature soon. To me its a big part of riding a bike, otherwise I'd just drive on my commute :p

    You'll get a sence for which drivers could potentially be knobheads when pulling away on a 125. Mainly base spec bm's or Audi that have been bought on pcp and the owners think they're the shizz just because of the badge :p

    It's not really a concern when you get a bigger bike though :D
     
  10. wazza300

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jul 11, 2009

    Posts: 27,065

    Location: BenefitStreetBirmingham

    just wait for a gap to appear if you get caught short filtering/lights change,and pull in safely
     
  11. ttaskmaster

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Sep 11, 2013

    Posts: 9,858

    The United Kingdom of Great Britian and Northern Ireland.
    It is legal there, right...? :p

    Would that also be why filtering accidents were so high then, you think...?
    Either way, filtering remains far more dangerous.

    Many of the lower end bikes WILL struggle to beat some cars.
    I'm not talking ├╝ber-super race cars either - I'm talking BMWs, Audis, Mercs and all those kinds you get lots of in commuter traffic, often driven by aggressive middle-management with something to prove.

    And yes, of course I ride. Read the thread.
    I quote studies, insurance reports, police reports and accident stats, because they give a far wider and more in-depth picture than just my own experience or opinion.

    Case in point - "Filtering is safer than risking a rear ender from waiting in stationary traffic".
    A couple of people assert this... Riding instructors, Police, insurers and actual accident statistics ALL wholeheartedly disagree. Opinion only goes so far - What actually happens tells the full story.

    You have some very slow drivers around your neck of the woods, then...!

    Until those cars also decide to race off, at which point you now have the conflict and must either yield, or rag it in the hope of pulling away.

    Again, depends what you're riding and what you're pulling away from.
    If I pull away 'comfortably', that still takes me about 4-5 seconds on my bike - A good number of cars out there will beat that if they're racing me. I have to properly rev up to pass them.
     
  12. Wucked

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Nov 19, 2010

    Posts: 1,844

    This isn't a case in point, its rank hypocrisy. Riding instructors, Police, Blood Bikes, Couriers, Ambulance Bikes, all professional riders, and they ALL filter. I see it daily. What these people say is nearly irrelevant if its not reflected in what they do.

    Personally I find that as long as I only filter through stationary traffic, where there is room to do so, then the risk is minimal. I think the most I've done in the last 20 years of filtering is clip someone wing mirror. No, its not luck. Just sticking to some basic rules.
     
  13. wazza300

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jul 11, 2009

    Posts: 27,065

    Location: BenefitStreetBirmingham

    Anyone come off while filtering?
     
  14. tom_e

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Dec 26, 2003

    Posts: 26,945

    Location: West mids

    white van man turned straight into me. Didn't indicate till I was pretty much on his back wheel. It was more maneuver signal than signal maneuver.
    Didn't come off but took a good hit to the shoulder from his wing mirror.
    I'd been filtering up a line of traffic for over 100m with the other side of the road clear so there's no reason he shouldn't have seen me.
     
  15. wazza300

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jul 11, 2009

    Posts: 27,065

    Location: BenefitStreetBirmingham

    Yeah that's similar to me,once on my cagiva,woman turned out a line of traffic into a side road and I hit her knocked her mirror right off,and another time exact same thing on my kmx and put a massive dent in his drivers door,didn't touch the bike

    Both times they successfully claimed against me

    Being rear ended is my worst fear though,but if it happens it happens,you still have the machine between you and them
     
  16. TallPaul_S

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 24, 2011

    Posts: 5,781

    Location: Kent

    Bit of a tip - if you can see the opposite side of the road is clear, move out well over the other side of the road, not on the centre line. People may look at you strange, but if someone pulls out/turns right/does a U turn from the traffic queue it'll give you a few metres of space to avoid them.
     
  17. VoG

    Soldato

    Joined: Jan 20, 2004

    Posts: 5,740

    Location: Nottingham

    Ive been rear ended twice, once at the lights & once at a roundabout, both times I got away with just a snapped number plate & no other damage, im far more worried about being t boned than rear ended tbh.
     
  18. tom_e

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Dec 26, 2003

    Posts: 26,945

    Location: West mids

    I was quite lucky that I was relatively far out which gave me a little more time to brake and move out even more to avoid going head on into the side of the van.
     
  19. wazza300

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jul 11, 2009

    Posts: 27,065

    Location: BenefitStreetBirmingham

    Ain't you legally supposed to stay within the white lines when filtering though?

    I was fairly new and wild back then,you do develope a good sixth sense over time when anticipating potential pullouts

    Lines of parked cars and sudden door openers are another try to leave room
     
  20. Yaayuh!

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 5, 2010

    Posts: 20,050

    Try not to get wound up by idiot drivers, it can make you vulnerable to react in a bad way. 2 wrongs don't make a right etc etc, just flip the bird or something.