Associate
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nice touch in closing the forum down as a mark of respect
- Thread starter magicroundabout
- Start date
Soldato
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Let us not forget who funded the IRA 'Terrorists'?
So let us also remember the countless people killed in N.Ireland courtesy of the Americans
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1563119.stm
So let us also remember the countless people killed in N.Ireland courtesy of the Americans
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1563119.stm
Soldato
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If we closed the forums every day a terrorist attack happened in this country*, it'd never be open
*I'm referring to the IRA's campaign of bombings.
Or the fact the terrorists found a soft target in America and won. Changing our lives forever as some people say, mainly because of draconian government laws.
September the 11th should be remembered as the day terrorists finally won against the UK.
Soldato
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Caporegime
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Sometimes people do my head in, you've got Tummy saying why should we care, we are brits afterall and it happened to Americans. Then later on in regards to the civilians lives lost in Afghanistan you can go on about how those are sad losses, those are citizens of the world, all the deaths are sad. Yet American citizens deaths, aren't a huge deal.
maybe thats not quite what you meant but it comes across as very anti American, they're big, so a few thousand lives don't matter, meh.
As for Tsunami's, earthquakes, sure more people died, but if you can't see the difference between weather, an unmalicious, non evil, non entitity creating a tragedy, and a specific attack where people were willing to give their lives to murder people. Well, the simple fact is I don't believe anyone is that stupid, you're just looking for excuses for it not to be a "big deal". Again you wonder why and the general anti american feel in so many threads in this forum seems a likely culprit.
The other fact is, yes the death toll was relatively low, but these guys tried to murder, they attempted to murder 80k people. They failed, they still did, unfortunately, a huge amount of damage, but this is what you need to remember. Their intent was to MURDER EVERYONE IN BOTH BUILDINGS. IT wasn't an attack on America, it was an attack on the strongest figure head of the "western culture" they want to destroy, that means it was an attack on us, France, Germany, Japan, everyone who doesn't share their beliefs. The attacks in London, you weren't there(for most people on this forum) yet you still consider it an attack on "us" English people.
Civilian lives lost in war, is tragic, and often somewhat avoidable, though lets be honest, our armys aren't hiding in civilian towns while under attack, and I'd like to think our leaders, should we ever face a massive war, wouldn't hide in civilian towns while under attack on purpose to try to disuade the other side attacking them. But this is the thing, we aren't there to INTENTIONALLY kill civilians, nor are we there to murder people randomly for living they way they do. Rightly or wrongly the intention for us being in Afghanistan is to stop a group of people terrorising the rest of the world. THe method might be crude, results poor, but the intention is good.
If you really and honestly can't see whats so different about the lives lost and the intentions behind them, I feel for you. You can murder someone in cold blood, or kill someone defending your own, or someone elses life, we rightly commend one of those, and condemn the other.
What I find sad is the justification and reasoning people come into threads like these to try to quantify just how bad it was while forgetting the real intentions, and what they hoped to achieve, rather than what they did achieve.
I'll say it again, these guys attacked westerners, not American's, they tried to murder 80k or more people, innocent people, they targetted innocent people on purpose without intending to do anything but cause a tragic loss of life, it was malicious, they wanted to cause pain and suffering and nothing else at all. I'm not sure theres ever been as malicious an attack to date. What if, as they hoped, both buildings were completely full, they managed to hit much lower in the building, almost no one got out, the buildings went down faster and they went over sideways killing thousands of people in other buildings aswell, the death toll could have been immense, and the sick thing is the people behind the attack were hoping for the absolute worse case scenario and those same people would have been dissappointed so few people died.
Actually the genocidal killings in Africa are just as bad, worse even, with worse numbers.
But while the majority of the world holds Tummy's opinion, why should we be sad, it was over there, things like that will keep happening.
maybe thats not quite what you meant but it comes across as very anti American, they're big, so a few thousand lives don't matter, meh.
As for Tsunami's, earthquakes, sure more people died, but if you can't see the difference between weather, an unmalicious, non evil, non entitity creating a tragedy, and a specific attack where people were willing to give their lives to murder people. Well, the simple fact is I don't believe anyone is that stupid, you're just looking for excuses for it not to be a "big deal". Again you wonder why and the general anti american feel in so many threads in this forum seems a likely culprit.
The other fact is, yes the death toll was relatively low, but these guys tried to murder, they attempted to murder 80k people. They failed, they still did, unfortunately, a huge amount of damage, but this is what you need to remember. Their intent was to MURDER EVERYONE IN BOTH BUILDINGS. IT wasn't an attack on America, it was an attack on the strongest figure head of the "western culture" they want to destroy, that means it was an attack on us, France, Germany, Japan, everyone who doesn't share their beliefs. The attacks in London, you weren't there(for most people on this forum) yet you still consider it an attack on "us" English people.
Civilian lives lost in war, is tragic, and often somewhat avoidable, though lets be honest, our armys aren't hiding in civilian towns while under attack, and I'd like to think our leaders, should we ever face a massive war, wouldn't hide in civilian towns while under attack on purpose to try to disuade the other side attacking them. But this is the thing, we aren't there to INTENTIONALLY kill civilians, nor are we there to murder people randomly for living they way they do. Rightly or wrongly the intention for us being in Afghanistan is to stop a group of people terrorising the rest of the world. THe method might be crude, results poor, but the intention is good.
If you really and honestly can't see whats so different about the lives lost and the intentions behind them, I feel for you. You can murder someone in cold blood, or kill someone defending your own, or someone elses life, we rightly commend one of those, and condemn the other.
What I find sad is the justification and reasoning people come into threads like these to try to quantify just how bad it was while forgetting the real intentions, and what they hoped to achieve, rather than what they did achieve.
I'll say it again, these guys attacked westerners, not American's, they tried to murder 80k or more people, innocent people, they targetted innocent people on purpose without intending to do anything but cause a tragic loss of life, it was malicious, they wanted to cause pain and suffering and nothing else at all. I'm not sure theres ever been as malicious an attack to date. What if, as they hoped, both buildings were completely full, they managed to hit much lower in the building, almost no one got out, the buildings went down faster and they went over sideways killing thousands of people in other buildings aswell, the death toll could have been immense, and the sick thing is the people behind the attack were hoping for the absolute worse case scenario and those same people would have been dissappointed so few people died.
Actually the genocidal killings in Africa are just as bad, worse even, with worse numbers.
But while the majority of the world holds Tummy's opinion, why should we be sad, it was over there, things like that will keep happening.
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Did anyone else see "102 minutes" on Sky Anytime?
They didn't show the plane crashes, but it was 102 minutes of entire eyewitness footage which made for some dramatic viewing
Watched that just now, really makes it more 'real' seeing only footage from the ground with people having no idea what is going on. The amount of debris within those few miles around was horrendous.
Can you add a warning that some of those pictures are slightly disturbing? I was expecting recent photos similar to the first one, the second photo made me feel sick.
Soldato
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Thats the impact its supposed to deliver Vixen (imo). I cant imagine what would go through the mind of an individual to drive them to actually jump. Yes it is sickening and disturbing - so was the whole cowardly attack. It is also right that we should not forget those that died and closing the forums as a mark of respect seems very apt.
Thank you Spie and RIP all those who perished on that fateful day 8 years ago
Perhaps you're right, however not everyone will want to see that image and I'd rather they knew what was behind the link before clicking.
I wholeheartedly disagree with your post.
Sorry but someone no sycophantic had to say it.
15 milliion killed in WWI
55 Million killed in WWII
3000 killed in USA
100 000+ killed in IRAQ to get rid of dictator who had not attacked USA
My perspective is slightly different from yours.
Only difference it has made to my life is that flights are now 30% more expensive.
If we closed the forums every day a terrorist attack happened in this country*, it'd never be open
*I'm referring to the IRA's campaign of bombings.
did a terrorist attack happen in this country on 11/9?
Soldato
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Way to read the whole quote there buddy.
I don't think he or I or anyone else were saying that, what we were saying is there is no difference. One life is worth the same as another (as you mentioned), yet we don't "mourne" their deaths do we? Even when their deaths are in far greater numbers. The reason for this, mostly due to the fact they weren't American or westerners (or even white)...
It' not meant to come across as anti American, it is meant to come across however as all people are equal, we (as in the US, UK and other governments) shouldn't kill hundreds of thousands of "those" people just because 20-30 of "those" (not that they were those people, most were Saudi...) killed a couple of thousand of "our" people.
So you're saying that because the people in the world trade centre died from a terrorist strike their deaths are worth 100x the lives of the people that died on boxing day 2006? Just becuase it wasn't a man made tragedy (debatable actually, far less are likely to have died if man hadn't interfered with nature but that's another topic entirely) these peoples lives shouldn't count? I would say it was far more tragic, it wasn't people against people it was nature against people.
Yes we see photos of people jumping from buildings and falling for a few seconds before dying instantly, what about the people who saw a massive wave and ran screaming for their lives before either they were too tired to run or overtaken and drowned after minutes or even hours? Those that died of starvation because they couldn't find food in the aftermath. Or even those that were working in a field before a US or German plane dropped a bomb on them? Compared to that people jumping in fear for a few seconds before dying quickly is nothing.
I can't believe anyone is that stupid to value western lives as 100x more valuble than those of Asian lives. That, tbh is mostly the reason one is remembered and not the other. One occured in a powerful nation, with thousands of cameras watching it, mourned by millions of other westerners, while the other occured in those "backwards" countries, that you may sometimes go on holiday too...
Well it is a War against Terror... So civilian loss in war is tragic... (ok yeah, that's stupid but I'm just trying to put across that it isn't too different. And as for thinking our government wouldn't hide fighters in amongst civilians, have you never heard of the french resistance? Or the plans the British government had to do the same thing. That is quite apart from the fact that these people you are talking about aren't anything to do with their government (especially in Afghanistan). They are men and women fighting an invasion force with few weapons and and little military training. I'm sure if someone invaded the UK you would do the same. Aside from that the war in Afghanistan had little to do with terrorism, most of the camps and recruits were in Saudi and Yemen... Iraq had nothing to do with the attacks on the WTC, in fact Saddam was actually hated by the rest of the middle east and didn't harbour terrorists before we invaded.
Soldiers can murder someone in cold blood and we commend them, whilst the people defending their own homes are condemned? Exactly (again, over the top but I just want to point out it works both ways). I fully support our troops wherever they are in the world, however I don't agree with the politics behind their deployment. You have to realise nothing is in black and white, as an old saying goes "history is written by the victor". I'm not condoning what the men did but you have to realise they didn't wake up one morning and go "I know what, I think i'll kill 80k people today", there is history. Even then it's a dispicable act, however why are the deaths they caused more important than a far larger number of deaths due to a "natural" cause?
Very true, however we as brits have had this for tens, and even hundreds of years, but we should do what we do for every other time this has happened, carry on, just like we did after the 7th of july bombings, or any of the myriad of other bombings and killings we have been subject to due to terrorism. The fact is the Americans are the cause of a lot of this mourning, they aren't used to this (and quite an interesting comment from an American I and a muslim were having a debate with over this very matter, aside from the comments of the muslim (who is a very western oriented Algerian) who had strong views on Americas foreign policy, the American said that it's a shame we [the British] have got so used to it) and due to this are still deeply in shock as to why someone would do this to their nation, this is transferred to the UK as we are so connected with the US through their TV and media influences.
Lets put it this way if 70 Brits died (without any Americans) there would not be anywhere near as much rememberance about it. We may have the occasional rememberence parade for say the first couple of years, the 5th and tenth if 3000 brits dies, but most telling of all is that if 3000 Indians/Africans/Chinese died in exactly the same circumstances, on their soil it wouldn't reach the news after the first year or so. There is nothing Anti american about people wondering why people are still mourning in the UK, it's the confusion of why these people are still doing it, when it affected our nation less than far more other bombings and killings.
The genocides in are FAR worse, but do we ever remember those? Nope...
Luckily the majority of the world do hold that view, and if more over here did too then the terrorists would stop. If we kept on with our normal lives (like after the 7th of july bombing) then why attack? Terrorism is about changing culture and feelings, not just killing a few people. If we carry on like nothing happened you you think people would still be willing to blow themselves up, even when it has no effect for their cause? In fact the 7th of july bombings can be directly linked to the invasion of Afghanistan, so if we hadn't invaded the nation we may not have even had a bombing...
Thank you for saying that
I wasn't being Anti American, I really wasn't trying to come across as a horrible person. I just lack sympathy for a country, in it's retribution can cause so much damage.
No one life is worth more than another.
Two wrongs don't make a right, because a country has been attacked and suffered deaths, doesn't make it right for them to go and take the lives of others.
"An eye for an eye"