NIP - Driving without due care and attention

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The police can't demand you submit any dashcam footage/evidence, you have ?
... if the police had reason to turn up at your address concernig prosecution, and noted that the car had a dashcam, you might have to justify yourself if the footage was not available. ?
 
Thanks for everyone's thoughts and comments on the situation, especially to @Burnsy2023 for his detailed analysis via email (excellent stuff). I think his analysis was spot on and it does appear she was driving a bit faster than she should have been.

I'm going to see what happens and if we get any further correspondence through the post. I'll update once I have more information for you. I'll aim to post the video once this has been resolved.
 
So is an off duty officers word basically god?

I love watching police crash camera custody cam madness as much as the next guy and quite often there's the whole "we've got him on camera running from the stolen smashed up car" which ends in "no further action" or "lack of evidence" but someone getting the arse that they didn't look properly when crossing the road leads to this?

I'd like to think it would get to "you did this".. "no I didn't".. "yes you did".. "prove it".."I can't".... ok then off you go? Or is it the fact that a copper not even on the clock's word is infallible?

Like, what are the chances of this being taken to court if you contest the NIP? Surely there's little public interest in this being pursued/the cost etc?
 
What if the driver was also an off-duty cop or someone of equal "trustworthyness"?

They are going to need more than just one guy's word to prosecute someone. People get away with much worse due to lack of evidence, even after being arrested at the scene.
 
Nasher said:
What if the driver was also an off-duty cop or someone of equal "trustworthyness"?

They are going to need more than just one guy's word to prosecute someone. People get away with much worse due to lack of evidence, even after being arrested at the scene.
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Insufficient evidence to bring about a conviction, and bringing a case in the first place are completely different things.
 
Guys serious question - other than Burnsy and a couple of others, do any of you know how all this actually works?

Somebody (whether off duty police officer or otherwise) has lodged a report, statement or complaint (whatever terminology you want to use) of driving without due care.
This is being pursued, and the first step is to identify the driver, which is where we are now.

Following the identification of the driver, the OPs wife is likely to be offered one of the following:
  • A fixed penalty notice
  • Some form of awareness course - Driver Alertness or something like that is the most likely
  • A court summons
This all depends on the perceived severity of her offence.

Nasher said:
Probably won't even get to court. There won't be any evidence for the police to show a court.
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The police will generally consult with the CPS on the best case of action, or at least use CPS guidelines. The OPs wife may or may not be offered a court date as part of that.
If the witness is considered reliable then their statement and account of events for an offence such as this is likely to be deemed sufficient evidence - but we are not at that stage yet

jpaul said:
The police can't demand you submit any dashcam footage/evidence, you have ?
... if the police had reason to turn up at your address concernig prosecution, and noted that the car had a dashcam, you might have to justify yourself if the footage was not available. ?
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The only thing that's been demanded is to identify the driver.

Nasher said:
What if the driver was also an off-duty cop or someone of equal "trustworthyness"?

They are going to need more than just one guy's word to prosecute someone. People get away with much worse due to lack of evidence, even after being arrested at the scene.
Click to expand...
That depends on a great many things, but it is more than possible to be convicted of a motoring offence based on reliable witness testimony.

ShiWarrior said:
this is why Adam said he is not going to do anything, if he then gets a court summons then hes got the evidence on his camera, and then its up to them what they do to the PC
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The OP is going to reply to the NIP. To not do so would be foolish in the extreme.

wedrum said:
ignore and see what happens, i would likely say nothing will.
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Do not do this. The fine for failing to respond to a NIP is 6 points and up to a £1000 fine

Nasher said:
BTW is this definitely not some kind of scam attempt? Fake speeding fines are a thing now.
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This is unlikely in the extreme.
 
jpaul said:
I had subsequently read this thread that covers self-incrimination possibilities with a camera ..( legal ) search mechanism
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.co...-fault-obligated-to-provide-their-dash-cam/p6
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There's some really questionable comments in that thread and some straight out abuse of process. Ultimately, if you don't have an indictable offence that gives you the power of entry and seizure, it's probably best not to get to invested to go over the top.
 
Lopéz said:
This all depends on the perceived severity of her offence.
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Whilst the severity of the offence is a big part of the disposal methods for say speeding, it's less of a consideration in careless/inconsiderate. The primary consideration will simply be whether they are eligible for the other disposals. So you can't get an awareness course if you've had a previous one in the last two years, had too many points already on the licence, previous offending etc.

Lopéz said:
The police will generally consult with the CPS on the best case of action, or at least use CPS guidelines. The OPs wife may or may not be offered a court date as part of that.
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As this is a summary only offence, this is charged by the police and the CPS aren't consulted. To be charged, the case must meet the Full Code Test: https://www.app.college.police.uk/a...charging-and-case-preparation/#full-code-test
 
...it was the remarks about 'inadvertently' giving permission to enter your car, at which point a camera could be seized, and, also,
perversion of the course of justice (for much more serious incidents), of not making material avaiable, that caugh my eye.
 
Lopéz said:
Cool, didn't know that - thanks!
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Worth noting my edit about the FCT. Also just for general info, police can charge in the following circumstances:
15. Police Charging Decisions
The police may charge:

(i) any Summary Only offence (including criminal damage where the value of the loss or damage is less than £5000) irrespective of plea;

(ii) any offence of retail theft (shoplifting) or attempted retail theft irrespective of plea provided it is suitable for sentence in the magistrates' court; and

(iii) any either way offence anticipated as a guilty plea and suitable for sentence in a magistrates' court;

provided that this is not:
  • a case requiring the consent to prosecute of the DPP or Law Officer;
  • a case involving a death;
  • connected with terrorist activity or official secrets;
  • classified as Hate Crime or Domestic Violence under CPS Policies;
  • an offence of Violent Disorder or Affray;
  • causing Grievous Bodily Harm or Wounding, or Actual Bodily Harm;
  • a Sexual Offences Act offence committed by or upon a person under 18;
  • an offence under the Licensing Act 2003.
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Update:

My wife received an offer for 3 points and a £100 fine for the careless driving offence. She called the number on the NIP and was told some very basic details although it didn't explain in full the reason why she was being prosecuted for the offence (i.e. there was no mention of the person stepping in to the road, only driving at excessive speed and it was mentioned in the statement that my wife made a gesture too). She didn't mention the gesture to me as she didn't think it was a big deal at the time, but it turned out to play an important part. Another option was for an officer to call her to talk through the allegation in more detail so she went for that option. My wife at this point had decided that having looked at the footage again that she'd take it on the chin and take the points and the fine.

We received a knock at the door over the weekend. It was the police, more specifically it was the individual in the dashcam footage. Obviously that explains that he was an off duty policeman at the time. We invited him in and he asked my wife if she knew why he was there.

Credit to my wife she said she was aware, she had reviewed the dashcam and concedes she was driving slightly faster than she should have been. Regarding the gesture, she was frustrated by him waving at her and shouldn't have made the gesture and was therefore sorry for doing so as it was unacceptable behavior. We had a bit of a laugh about it and how it was out of character for my wife.

The policeman explained she was actually lucky not to get charged with 2 offences: 1) driving without due care and attention as she took her hand off the wheel to make the gesture and 2) a public order offence for the gesture itself. The policeman said that even if the gesture hadn't been made, he thought she was driving too fast for the conditions and would have reported her anyway. He mentioned that he sees situations like this escalate out of control with road rage etc so feels this kind of education is important. Can't argue with that.

The policeman was very reasonable and said that because she admitted she was in the wrong and showed remorse he would drop the charge against her and to consider it a telling off and a warning. If she had played dumb or tried to justified her actions etc then he would not have dropped the charge.

I thought that was an incredibly effective way to deal with the situation. My wife said that even though she was relieved not to receive the points, it was more of a lesson/telling off as it was more personal. It also taught our son who was in the room at the time that honesty is the best policy and the best way to deal with situations like that. Sometimes these lessons are best coming from someone else so they actually take some notice.

A good outcome to a situation that probably should have been avoided. I'll have this in the back of my mind next time too :D
 
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