Caporegime
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...surps-power-from-developers-end-users-and-amd
Following on from this thread, Joel has apologised for the misinformation he previously said.
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Nvidia’s GameWorks program usurps power from developers, end-users, and AMD
- Thread starter LtMatt
- Start date
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...surps-power-from-developers-end-users-and-amd
Following on from this thread, Joel has apologised for the misinformation he previously said.
Just to copy over what i said in the other thread. Good to see Nvidia confessing though and it was nice to finally be proved right in what i said all along since the start. AMD unable to provide their own performance optimizations using their own drivers on any games that use GameWorks code.
That's my final say on the matter as well. Now Nvidia have confessed, no need for pages of pointless debates going round in circles. I'll leave that to Frosty.
Caporegime
Confessed to what though? They are tight on this new tech, as AMD are with theirs so I don't see what the problem is.
Mantle/DX/GameWorks are all closed libraries, so why is this an issue?
Mantle/DX/GameWorks are all closed libraries, so why is this an issue?
Because Mantle does not block Nvidia from optimizing their own drivers for Mantle capable games that also use DX11.1, ala Battlefield 4/Thief etc. You can't compare GameWorks to Mantle, or even TressFX. TressFX has its own SDK available for download btw.
Soldato
Mantle and DX are separate code paths and NV can optimize the DX path of a game, mantle does not effect the DX path in any way..
GameWorks is not a separate code path to DX and AMD can not fully optimize for it.
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Caporegime
But GameWorks is nVidia tech, so you are getting the GameWorks effects and the optimizations are done via nVidia. You can see from the Batman: Arkham Origins thread how that works for AMD...
Mantle gives older CPU's and GPU's more grunt, so in effect, the equivalent nVidia GPU can't go as high on GFX as a Mantle enabled GPU, so yer, AMD are no better than nVidia with their closed libraries...
Mantle gives older CPU's and GPU's more grunt, so in effect, the equivalent nVidia GPU can't go as high on GFX as a Mantle enabled GPU, so yer, AMD are no better than nVidia with their closed libraries...
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Yes if FXAA is used then a 770 is faster than a 290X. Its cause for concern.
100% spot on.
I need to just stop posting here, because even with Nvidia now saying it some just won't accept it and i need to accept that so this will be my last post. Greg don't you try and drag me back in you swine lol.
Caporegime
FXAA isn't exactly great, couldn't you just not use FXAA and instead use proper AA 
?
FXAA IIRC is like MLAA.
Couldn't you just AMD's MLAA driver side anyway?
?FXAA IIRC is like MLAA.
Couldn't you just AMD's MLAA driver side anyway
?
Caporegime
Yes if FXAA is used then a 770 is faster than a 290X. Its cause for concern.
100% spot on.
I need to just stop posting here, because even with Nvidia now saying it some just won't accept it and i need to accept that so this will be my last post. Greg don't you try and drag me back in you swine lol.
I accept it and I don't see the issue. Why would you run a game with only FXAA on a 290X? The arguments have always been that when you turn the dials up, then "X" GPU really starts to shine.... Not when you turn the dials down lol
So a GTX 660 is fater than a 7970 with all the settings lowered... Yer ok
Soldato
That is a Strawman because Mantle has no effect on how high NV cards can go on gfx settings, Mantle does not effect NV cards, it only effects AMD cards, while GameWorks does effect AMD cards.
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Soldato
It's debatable how much if any performance is lost through GameWorks. AMD cards are **** at tessellation. Look at the Heaven thread for crying out loud. At any point did Joel disable it? Pretty sure he didn't.
There's a line somewhere, and it's not worth the effort trying to find it through all the man-crying about how there is excessive amounts in the particular game.
You stick 8X AA on anything, or most things, and 290s will sail through as they crush Kepler with their extra bandwidth. But turn it on it's head and apparently there's 'too much' tessellation.
Would you like some cheese with that whine.
There's a line somewhere, and it's not worth the effort trying to find it through all the man-crying about how there is excessive amounts in the particular game.
You stick 8X AA on anything, or most things, and 290s will sail through as they crush Kepler with their extra bandwidth. But turn it on it's head and apparently there's 'too much' tessellation.
Would you like some cheese with that whine.
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Caporegime
No it isn't. My point is perfectly valid. Closed libraries are exactly that and one doesn't counteract the other. I don't care if Mantle is closed, as that is AMD's choice. I don't care if GameWorks is closed, as that is nVidia's choice but all this lambasting of nVidia for doing exactly what AMD are doing is hypocritical.
Soldato
- Joined
- 30 Nov 2011
- Posts
- 11,375
You can also turn off all of the gameworks options If they were impacting performance, which they aren't
Nvidia have not confessed to anything, that update is from the 3rd of Jan (American date format) and was there for the entirety ofnthe previous arguments
I accept it and I don't see the issue. Why would you run a game with only FXAA on a 290X? The arguments have always been that when you turn the dials up, then "X" GPU really starts to shine.... Not when you turn the dials down lol
So a GTX 660 is fater than a 7970 with all the settings lowered... Yer ok
How many people use 290X's or high end gpu's though? A small fraction. How many use low end to mid end gpu's? The majority. So now we have a situation where the majority will be using low to mid range cards and will be using FXAA.
The situation is a 660 is able to beat out a 7950 boost, which is a substantially faster and more expensive card with FXAA on, ala the GameWorks effect. Only when x8 AA is forced (AMD can optimize for AA in the drivers as its not tied to the GW Library - Confirmed by Joel and AMD) can they over power the GW effect. Its a cause for concern if this starts happening in more demanding titles.
660 faster than 7950 boost - 770 faster than 290X (how is that possible???)
x8 AA
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Soldato
Nv title faster at release on NV hardware.
Stop the press, some ones dropped whine on the carrier
AMD cards not great at tessellation : Continues on Page 4
Stop the press, some ones dropped whine on the carrier
AMD cards not great at tessellation : Continues on Page 4
Soldato
The fact that they are both closed is not the point, the point is about optimization in games and with Mantle and DX being separate code paths and as things stand games that use Mantle path also use a DX path so optimization is not an issue for AMD or NV.
But for gameworks that is not the case, optimization is an issue for AMD because there is no separate path.
Soldato
You explain it better than i can. Now await the incoming deflection.
Indeed which is obvious so ill leave you to it as i have better things to do with my time
@LtMatt ill leave you to it as i have better things to do with my time
Lol. Can i come with you? Tough im coming anyway. (not like that you dirty rats)
Soldato