Nvidia’s GameWorks program usurps power from developers, end-users, and AMD

[humbug]

Nvidia Playing Dirty With GameWorks – Semi-Propriety Nature May Pose Serious Danger to AMD, Dev’s Power Diluted.

GameWorks – Graphical Feats Performed by Hidden Code Optimized by NVIDIA for both Developers and AMD.



Full Article
http://wccftech.com/nvidia-playing-...-pose-serious-danger-amd-dev-s-power-diluted/

However thing about this particular library is that its code is closed. Developers cannot see the code at all, therefore they cannot modify it. Only Nvidia has the power to modify this particular set of code. Now though it will only be a slight inconvenience and a mild insult to developers, it can be a much serious threat for AMD.
Basically AMD will be relying on NVIDIA to Optimize the GameWorks Library for AMD GPUs – Because they cannot edit the code themselves.
You probably see the subtle attack now, with the AMD Driver team unable to optimize their GPUs for games with GameWorks, AMD will be quite literally at Nvidia’s mercy.

So this is Nvidia's response to Mantle, how predictable. its pathetic.

 

[Gregster]

After reading the second article, I am now a little wiser

So basically, Mantle will bring optimizations to AMD hardware that Nvidia can't use and therefore, whilst Nvidia can still run Mantle games perfectly well, they will just miss out on they same level of optimizations that AMD GCN users will benefit from?

 

[LtMatt]

Ok, I've glanced through this thread and I am a total loss at what you're trying to prove.

Performance is pretty much very similar in Arkham Origins if not for PhysX. The last link you've reposted is against a 770 at base settings, for which there is probably a CPU bottleneck at those frame rates.

So the real question is, why are you posting all these articles when it's a non story? Nvidia worked along side WB Studios. In the same way Nvidia lost out when Tomb Raider launched because Crystal Dynamics hadn't given them the latest game build for their drivers.

As Greg tried to point out in the opening post (4 pages ago) you're picking up whatever you can find on the internet (which is obviously 100% truth wherever you look according to some) and making a non story.

Not trying to prove anything. The article is here to be discussed. Just expressing my concern that any game using GameWorks libraries means AMD are unable to provide any performance optimizations. Infact all possible performance optimizations are completely in the hands of a rival vendor. If you cannot see the problem in that then fine, stay out of the thread and let us debate it. I myself think its rather bleak for gamers, particularly those using AMD cards, if they cannot provide optimizations and performance improvements for their own cards on any game using the GameWorks library. I know you don't care as you've got a Nvidia card, thats fine, but let us who do care debate it.

After reading the second article, I am now a little wiser

So basically, Mantle will bring optimizations to AMD hardware that Nvidia can't use and therefore, whilst Nvidia can still run Mantle games perfectly well, they will just miss out on they same level of optimizations that AMD GCN users will benefit from?

I don't think you really understand. Nvidia will have the Mantle source code (as will devs) and be able to code their drivers accordingly if they wish, once the full version of Mantle is released. Nvidia GameWorks are locked, no optimization for Devs or AMD. It all lies with Nvidia.

 

[humbug]

After reading the second article, I am now a little wiser

So basically, Mantle will bring optimizations to AMD hardware that Nvidia can't use and therefore, whilst Nvidia can still run Mantle games perfectly well, they will just miss out on they same level of optimizations that AMD GCN users will benefit from?

Nope, Nvidia have not only locked AMD out, but also the developer, The Developer and AMD have to get Nvidia to optimise a game using GameWorks libraries for AMD.

AMD's API, which is fully accessible to Developers and does not need AMD's input, and has no restrictions on what they want do with it.

Nvidia response to that is to lock the developer out of their library so even the developer can't optimise for AMD.

I think Nvidia have given AMD and developers their answer to taking up Mantle, emphatically NO!

 

[Silent_Scone]

So, Kaaps results mean nothing then?

I'm not sure why you'd be surprised that a PhysX based game produced slightly better results anyway. Before you even contemplate GameWorks favouritism. I'd only worry about it if and when performance is truly effected. As of right now, on the cards that matter - it is not.

 

[LtMatt]

Nope, Nvidia have not only locked AMD out, but also the developer, The Developer and AMD have to get Nvidia to optimise a game using GameWorks libraries for AMD.

AMD's API, which is fully accessible to Developers and does not need AMD's input and has no restrictions on what they do with it.

Nvidia response to that is to lock the developer out out of thier libry so the developer can't even optimise for AMD.

I think Nvidia have given AMD and developers their answer to taking up Mantle, emphatically NO!

+1

We all need to hope Mantle is a success if this is the way its going. Otherwise you might need two different graphics cards from each vendor. This is Nvidia saying no to mantle for sure.

 

[Gregster]

I don't think you really understand. Nvidia will have the Mantle source code (as will devs) and be able to code their drivers accordingly if they wish, once the full version of Mantle is released. Nvidia GameWorks are locked, no optimization for Devs or AMD. It all lies with Nvidia.

Nope, Nvidia have not only locked AMD out, but also the developer, The Developer and AMD have to get Nvidia to optimise a game using GameWorks libraries for AMD.

AMD's API, which is fully accessible to Developers and does not need AMD's input, and has no restrictions on what they want do with it.

Nvidia response to that is to lock the developer out of their library so even the developer can't optimise for AMD.

I think Nvidia have given AMD and developers their answer to taking up Mantle, emphatically NO!

[fake troll mode]Could be a good time to get a nVidia GPU - you get the benefits of all the AMD "open" tech as well as the "propriety" tech from nVidia[/fake troll mode]

Well if this is certainly true and AMD have no chance to optimize GameWorks games for AMD hardware, maybe it is a good time to buy Nvidia? You get the best of both worlds and I am not even trolling.

 

[Final8y]

After reading the second article, I am now a little wiser

So basically, Mantle will bring optimizations to AMD hardware that Nvidia can't use and therefore, whilst Nvidia can still run Mantle games perfectly well, they will just miss out on they same level of optimizations that AMD GCN users will benefit from?

No Nvidia will not be running Mantle Games, they will be running DX11 games, Mantle is a separate path.

GameWorks is different, its not GameWorks path and DX11 path for AMD, there would be no issue if that was the case because that would be the same as Mantle.

With GameWorks all you get is the GameWorks path.

 

[LtMatt]

Well if this is certainly true and AMD have no chance to optimize GameWorks games for AMD hardware, maybe it is a good time to buy Nvidia? You get the best of both worlds and I am not even trolling.

Lol sad but true.

Looks like ill never be buying a TWIMTBP title ever again. At least currently you know once the game is released AMD will optimize for it and get performance up to where it should be. With Nvidia in charge for AMD's optimization i think i better stick to Gaming Evolved/Mantle titles and other games that aren't sponsored by either side.

 

[humbug]

Well if this is certainly true and AMD have no chance to optimize GameWorks games for AMD hardware, maybe it is a good time to buy Nvidia? You get the best of both worlds and I am not even trolling.

It will only affect AMD in games using Nvidia's GameWorks libraries.

I think the chances are 99% of Developers will take one look at it and tell Nvidia what they can go do with it, and themselves.

 

[eyetrip]

I thought Nvidia's answer to mantle, was the arm processors that Maxwell cards will be employing - or did I read something incorrectly?

It's one thing for people to say that Nvidia fans are turning a blind eye, but I think the anti-nvidia crowd are spinning things that may not ever be a problem.

Nobody has shown me benchmarks where AMD cards appear severely crippled.

Seriously, how many Nvidia fans are crying that they won't get mantle?

Might this become an issue? Possibly... but as it stands currently, it just looks like a non-issue to me.

You got to remember that dev's/publishers aren't going to be willingly alienating a huge market of potential customers. I think if it turned out there was severe crippling going on, it would come out as it always does in this day and age.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

 

[SiDeards73]

Nvidia are pathetic, i wont be buying another of their gpu's for a long while, ultimately its us the consumer that suffers, as they can just price hike their cards if people start getting paranoid and swapping AMD cards for Nvidia.

They are like little sad evil mastermind wannabes, unfortunately i wont be jumping on their bandwagon.

I mostly only play mmo's and the odd fps, and lets be honest mmo's are scaled to fit the lowest end machines anyhow, so running top of the range gpu's is always overkill.

 

[LtMatt]

It will only affect AMD in games using Nvidia's GameWorks libraries.

I think the chances are 99% or Developers will take one look at it and tell Nvidia what they can go do with it.

Depends how much ££ they give Devs. They aren't short of a bob or two.

I thought Nvidia's answer to mantle, was the arm processors that Maxwell cards will be employing - or did I read something incorrectly?

It's one thing for people to say that Nvidia fans are turning a blind eye, but I think the anti-nvidia crowd are spinning things that may not ever be a problem.

Nobody has shown me benchmarks where AMD cards appear severely crippled.

Seriously, how many Nvidia fans are crying that they won't get mantle?

Might this become an issue? Possibly... but as it stands currently, it just looks like a non-issue to me.

You got to remember that dev's/publishers aren't going to be willingly alienating a huge market of potential customers. I think if it turned out there was severe crippling going on, it would come out as it always does in this day and age.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

I hope you're right, but theres still a debate to be had here.

 

[Gregster]

Lol sad but true.

Looks like ill never be buying a TWIMTBP title ever again. At least currently you know once the game is released AMD will optimize for it and get performance up to where it should be. With Nvidia in charge for AMD's optimization i think i better stick to Gaming Evolved/Mantle titles and other games that aren't sponsored by either side.

You wouldn't own a TWIMTBP title anyway hunny

I do think this is being massively blown out of proportion still. AMD get very good fps in this Batman AO and unless Nvidia purposefully make GameWorks titles unplayable on AMD hardware, I see this as much ado about nothing. It is also evident that anyone with some knowledge on programming libraries/code could rip apart the GameWorks libraries to see what makes it tick.

 

[Gregster]

Nvidia are pathetic, i wont be buying another of their gpu's for a long while, ultimately its us the consumer that suffers, as they can just price hike their cards if people start getting paranoid and swapping AMD cards for Nvidia.

They are like little sad evil mastermind wannabes, unfortunately i wont be jumping on their bandwagon.

I mostly only play mmo's and the odd fps, and lets be honest mmo's are scaled to fit the lowest end machines anyhow, so running top of the range gpu's is always overkill.

So you are happy to cut off your nose to spite your face?

 

[LtMatt]

You wouldn't own a TWIMTBP title anyway hunny

I do think this is being massively blown out of proportion still. AMD get very good fps in this Batman AO and unless Nvidia purposefully make GameWorks titles unplayable on AMD hardware, I see this as much ado about nothing. It is also evident that anyone with some knowledge on programming libraries/code could rip apart the GameWorks libraries to see what makes it tick.

I've probably got as many as you, i just don't shout about it from the rooftops. I have a couple of TWIMTBP 'shockers'.

The fps is not the problem here, thats the point people keep missing. The problem is AMD unable to provide optimizations/performance/driver tweaks for their own graphics cards because of GameWorks. Having to rely on Nvidia for these things is not ideal. If people cannot see that then well they must be a couple of cans short of a six pack.

This is going to be the case now for EVERY GameWorks/TWIMTBP title.

 

[humbug]

Depends how much ££ they give Devs. They aren't short of a bob or two.

If Developers want to be on the New Game Consoles they will not be using GameWorks libraries, as they are all AMD powered

Nvidia don't have the finances to pay Developers revenue looses as a result of that ^^^^

Interestingly Batman Origins is on every Games Console bar the GCN powered xBox One and PS4.

I wonder how much thats cost WB or Nvidia so far, Nvidia don't have that much spare cash, and their revenues are dwindling rapidly.

 

[Marine-RX179]

Well if this is certainly true and AMD have no chance to optimize GameWorks games for AMD hardware, maybe it is a good time to buy Nvidia? You get the best of both worlds and I am not even trolling.

Actually no. The more people buy Nvidia the more they encourage GameWorks...and unless I misunderstood...it doesn't really bring extra performance to Nvidia graphics, but more about anti-competition trying to cripple their rival to make themselves look better on performance? So rather than focusing pushing their cards frame rate up, they focusing on trying to push down the frame rate of their rival's cards down, so it will "look like" their customers are getting better bang for bucks when it is not?

Rather than doing this...how about just do the simple thing, like focusing on increase their graphic card performance and driver performance for dx and don't overcharge for them and duke it out with AMD cards with Mantle support man-to-man face-to-face? It's not like games that support Mantle are locking out dx support for the sake of crippling Nvidia....GameWorks on the other hand...

 

[Gregster]

I've probably got as many as you, i just don't shout about it from the rooftops. I have a couple of TWIMTBP 'shockers'.

The fps is not the problem here, thats the point people keep missing. The problem is AMD unable to provide optimizations/performance/driver tweaks for their own graphics cards because of GameWorks. Having to rely on Nvidia for these things is not ideal. If people cannot see that then well they must be a couple of cans short of a six pack.

This is going to be the case now for EVERY GameWorks/TWIMTBP title.

I think you and others are not clearly understanding what goes on to make a game. Like I have said previous, someone at AMD "should" be ripping the GameWorks libraries to pieces and seeing what makes it tick (The very same thing that Nvidia will be doing with Mantle). Once they have done this, they will be able to implement optimizations for AMD hardware.

Because GameWorks is brand new, this isn't going to happen over night but these optimizations will be implimented from AMD devs in the game code and driver level. It isn't that hard to understand but people seem to miss this?

 

[SiDeards73]

Yep Gregster, why should i be ripped off by Nvidia? easiest way to let companies know you arent happy with their practices is to simply not buy their products.

AMD cards are as good as and often better than the equivalent Nvidia offerings and often a lot cheaper.

Dont mind dialling down a few notches on settings to make something playable if the developers have been given a fat wad of cash from Nvidia to use their code and locked AMD performance out. Besides as i state theres very few games i play, and most of those you dont need top end machines to play them, so my rigs overkill for a lot of them anyhow.