Nvidia’s GameWorks program usurps power from developers, end-users, and AMD

[LtMatt]

I think you and others are not clearly understanding what goes on to make a game. Like I have said previous, someone at AMD "should" be ripping the GameWorks libraries to pieces and seeing what makes it tick (The very same thing that Nvidia will be doing with Mantle). Once they have done this, they will be able to implement optimizations for AMD hardware.

Because GameWorks is brand new, this isn't going to happen over night but these optimizations will be implimented from AMD devs in the game code and driver level. It isn't that hard to understand but people seem to miss this?

GameWorks is a closed Library Greg. Its not going to be ripped to pieces by devs or AMD. Nvidia are the ones responsible for it all. Only they can provide optimizations.

I urge you to take a read of the comments here. The author of the article explains the score to a couple of people posing questions at the bottom.

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...surps-power-from-developers-end-users-and-amd

 

[humbug]

Edit ^^^^ to slow...

I think you and others are not clearly understanding what goes on to make a game. Like I have said previous, someone at AMD "should" be ripping the GameWorks libraries to pieces and seeing what makes it tick (The very same thing that Nvidia will be doing with Mantle). Once they have done this, they will be able to implement optimizations for AMD hardware.

Because GameWorks is brand new, this isn't going to happen over night but these optimizations will be implimented from AMD devs in the game code and driver level. It isn't that hard to understand but people seem to miss this?

What your describing i'm pretty sure is illegal, i'm not even sure they could with a locked source code.

 

[BuzzLloydyear]

Whilst I think it is a bit of a slippery slope. You have to think that Nvidia will be obliged to at least make the game in a playable state for both vendors. They would be liable should the game not work as advertised on AMD.

I am not as worried about it others appear to be. I would like more harmony between the two companies. They are both very good companies who do great work for gaming, but they undo a lot of what they do by getting into these petty rivalries. (Nvidia are the generally the main culprits, but AMD are by no means squeaky clean).

I understand they are rivals trying to get as much success as they can. There are just 2 players in this game though, they don't need to be resorting to low level tit for tat tactics to be successful. They both have their own niches, various people chose various vendors for various reasons. These little deeds they do are not really going to change that.

I sometimes think they have taken the saying, "nice guys finish last" way too literally.

 

[Gregster]

Yep Gregster, why should i be ripped off by Nvidia? easiest way to let companies know you arent happy with their practices is to simply not buy their products.

AMD cards are as good as and often better than the equivalent Nvidia offerings and often a lot cheaper.

Dont mind dialling down a few notches on settings to make something playable if the developers have been given a fat wad of cash from Nvidia to use their code and locked AMD performance out. Besides as i state theres very few games i play, and most of those you dont need top end machines to play them, so my rigs overkill for a lot of them anyhow.

I have no qualms about buying what suits me best. I like PhysX and 3D, so I bought Nvidia. I like the sound of Mantle and if it delivers, I will get an AMD card as well. Too much emphasis is put into Nvidia being the bad guys (they probably are) but people should look closer to home...

I shop at a local butchers for all my meat and still have a milkman. I often (not as much as I should) still use a local shop, as I want to see the local shopkeeper in business (like he has been since I was a kid (granted, that was a long time ago)). The big corporations like Tesco are happy and wilfully opening up in places where they can kill off the local shops but how many of you don't care?

Sorry, a slight tangent there but I scratch my head when I read "Nvidia are bad" blah blah blah but then people don't preach what they practice. Or do but only when it suits.

Not a dig at you Sid btw Just it boils my blood to see such staunch statements.

 

[SiDeards73]

Nvidia are the epitome of what is wrong with huge companies, screw their consumers and their competitors for the sake of small one-ups, not only do they charge more for their products (Which is debatable if the extra cost is always worth it)

They pull of stunts like this... they must think all consumers are ignorant idiots who are going to sit and take these kinds of stunts, vote with your wallets people.

Tbh if i was a gaming company producing the next best game, i would want it on as many machines as possible in all of its glory, not hamstringed because some dodgey geezer in a black suit and sunglasses slipped me a briefcase full of greasy notes down a dark alley one night.

It reeks of desperation imo

 

[humbug]

Whilst I think it is a bit of a slippery slope. You have to think that Nvidia will be obliged to at least make the game in a playable state for both vendors. They would be liable should the game not work as advertised on AMD.

I am not as worried about it others appear to be. I would like more harmony between the two companies. They are both very good companies who do great work for gaming, but they undo a lot of what they do by getting into these petty rivalries. (Nvidia are the generally the main culprits, but AMD are by no means squeaky clean).

I understand they are rivals trying to get as much success as they can. There are just 2 players in this game though, they don't need to be resorting to low level tit for tat tactics to be successful. They both have their own niches, various people chose various vendors for various reasons. These little deeds they do are not really going to change that.

I sometimes think they have taken the saying, "nice guys finish last" way too literally.

I think Marine-RX179 put it best a few posts up.

I do agree none of them are the "good guy" but it seems what AMD are doing with Mantle improves this industry and our experience with it, i am by no means saying "thats why AMD do it"
What Nvidia are doing is trying to throw a spanner in those works, to the detriment of you me and everyone reading this.

 

[Gregster]

I would remove that swear word Si before a mod see's it.

 

[SiDeards73]

I agree Greg, we have a local co-op down in our village, we use that as often as possible, or the small convenience store further up the road from it, we prefer our veg from the local farm shop, not only does it taste better, it keeps longer.

Now if only i could get the butcher to lower his prices a little and the fishmonger haha

Im just sick of being taken for a ride by component producers, i look at what AMD are doing with Mantle, brilliant, everyone benefits in the long run, then look at Nvidias reply and just shake my head and think oh dear.

 

[Gregster]

Batman as it should be

 

[Stanners]

I agree Greg, we have a local co-op down in our village, we use that as often as possible, or the small convenience store further up the road from it, we prefer our veg from the local farm shop, not only does it taste better, it keeps longer.

Now if only i could get the butcher to lower his prices a little and the fishmonger haha

Im just sick of being taken for a ride by component producers, i look at what AMD are doing with Mantle, brilliant, everyone benefits in the long run, then look at Nvidias reply and just shake my head and think oh dear.

When can Nvidia users use Mantle?

This AMD are the peoples champions view is getting boring

 

[LtMatt]

Batman as it should be

Lol fathers for justice.

It might be tempting to link them, but this isn't about Mantle vs. Gameworks. A game that supports Mantle does not penalize DX11 on any other solution. Nvidia retains full control over their own DX11 performance and can optimize the title in all the usual ways.

Here's what you're missing: If you write a game 'the normal way", partnering with AMD or NV means that one company has better, more optimized drivers ready for launch. Nothing prevents the other company from optimizing drivers post launch. So in the long run, games get optimized on both platforms.
Optimized through GameWorks, games are never optimized for AMD at all. That's a fundamental change from how we used to do things. Instead of working with a developer to add support for specific NV functions, Gameworks actively works against the implementation of any AMD-specific functions.
Nvidia can optimize their drivers. AMD can't. That's not an "Nvidia advantage" like PhysX, or TXAA, or G-Sync.

 

[Tonester0011]

Don't care for all the talk regarding Nvidia/AMD. It's boring, i did see talk about food and shops though

I shop using Tesco online, for everything. Does that make me a bad guy?

 

[Final8y]

Lol fathers for justice.

Quote:
It might be tempting to link them, but this isn't about Mantle vs. Gameworks. A game that supports Mantle does not penalize DX11 on any other solution. Nvidia retains full control over their own DX11 performance and can optimize the title in all the usual ways.
Quote:

Here's what you're missing: If you write a game 'the normal way", partnering with AMD or NV means that one company has better, more optimized drivers ready for launch. Nothing prevents the other company from optimizing drivers post launch. So in the long run, games get optimized on both platforms.
Optimized through GameWorks, games are never optimized for AMD at all. That's a fundamental change from how we used to do things. Instead of working with a developer to add support for specific NV functions, Gameworks actively works against the implementation of any AMD-specific functions.
Nvidia can optimize their drivers. AMD can't. That's not an "Nvidia advantage" like PhysX, or TXAA, or G-Sync.

Exactly.

 

[Gregster]

Don't care for all the talk regarding Nvidia/AMD. It's boring, i did see talk about food and shops though

I shop using Tesco online, for everything. Does that make me a bad guy?

No, as you buy what suits you best and don't preach to others.

I can understand the support for the "small guy" but talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill. If Nvidia crippled performance in GameWorks games, it would only cripple the publishers pocket, so that isn't going to happen.

 

[MichaelM]

I think Gregster is suffering some Stockholm syndrome. I'm serious.

 

[Davanius]

This thread has made me sad.

I don't know how to describe what I am feeling.

I hate you Nvidia .....Sometimes .........

But I love your cards .........Damn you.

I played and completed batman origins on my 7970 and had a great experience without bad performance.

Then I replayed it with the 780 and got what I expected which was a better experience due to myself loving 3d and physx.

I thought the game was awesome after completing it the first time. In no way did using the 7970 hinder my enjoyment. Just saying.

 

[Silent_Scone]

Just looked for a "poor Batman Origins performance on my 290X???" Thread.

Didn't pull up any results...

End thread?

 

[BuzzLloydyear]

I think Marine-RX179 put it best a few posts up.

I do agree none of them are the "good guy" but it seems what AMD are doing with Mantle improves this industry and our experience with it, i am by no means saying "thats why AMD do it"
What Nvidia are doing is trying to throw a spanner in those works, to the detriment of you me and everyone reading this.

Don't get me wrong, my last few cards have been AMD. I am rocking a 7990, so it will effect me. Nvidia will be legally obliged to make it playable for AMD cards though and should they find it isn't they put themselves in a very dangerous position.

This is why I am not overly worried about the GameWorks program. They can't hamstring the cards beyond playability. The graphs are showing that there are some fairly decent results for certain lower level cards. Whist it is sad that AMD are blocked from it, the game is not running very badly at all it seems. The real challenge to this will come when AMD cards are not performing to an acceptable standard.

I will say though, Nvidia doing this, doesn't make me want to rush out and buy an Nvidia card any more than normal. I will pick a card which I think offers a good deal for me as a person, as and when I need it. All these things do is annoy me. I know some people will go Nvidia for it, but they have acquired a rather unsavoury reputation for these silly things now. Which may sour people from every going to the green side. They have to measure the damage caused along with the gains and I am sure in the long run, all this does precious little for increased sales.

I will always take many various things into account when I purchase hardware and I generally don't take into account the odd hamstrung game that doesn't work amazingly well, because more often than not, they are an anomaly.

So yeah, it is a slippery slope and one Nvidia definitely don't need to take anyone down, as long as games are made playable for AMD then there is no serious problem, regardless of how annoying it is that they feel the need to do so in the first place.

 

[pgi947]

Don't care for all the talk regarding Nvidia/AMD. It's boring, i did see talk about food and shops though

I shop using Tesco online, for everything. Does that make me a bad guy?

Only a bad guy, if say you only need a loaf of bread and some milk, then just buy beer and fags to drive it up to the check out price - I've never done that, honest

 

[humbug]

When can Nvidia users use Mantle?

In all likelihood. never.

Nope, Nvidia have not only locked AMD out, but also the developer, The Developer and AMD have to get Nvidia to optimise a game using GameWorks libraries for AMD.

AMD's API, which is fully accessible to Developers and does not need AMD's input, and has no restrictions on what they want do with it.

Nvidia response to that is to lock the developer out of their library so even the developer can't optimise for AMD.

I think Nvidia have given AMD and developers their answer to taking up Mantle, emphatically NO!