Conjecture your honor! Overruled/Sustained!
Obesity is not a choice
- Thread starter G-MAN2004
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Conjecture your honor! Overruled/Sustained!
I'm not sure what you think I misunderstood. The original quote that I responded to discredited ridiculing fat people as a way to discourage obesity by saying that it never stopped people being gay. Now, I've never been fat or gay, but my understanding is that they're quite different things, and therefore you can't substitute one for the other in that way.
Maybe you weren't arguing that ridicule doesn't work but you did state that that's what ttaskmaster meant, and so I responded to that. That's what you get for conflating your argument with theirs, but perhaps I could have been more careful when reading / responding.
I don't advocate ridiculing people, but if my posts came across that way then it's probably because I'm wary of people using arguments against that sort of thing as a way of stifling free speech - in this context, pointing out that someone needs to lay off the pies will probably be labeled as hate speech soon. In an ideal world we could allow people to say whatever they liked, people would take genuine constructive criticism on board and no one would cross the line to bullying or ridicule, but that's not the world we live in.
Soldato
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It does!!
(it was supposed to say "loaf", but I think I may as well leave it unedited now!)
we'd got it ... need an autcorrect that intentionally puts in freudian slips.
comparison between smoking and obesity still seems appropriate so =>
"sad or frightening ads that are highly emotional and feature the serious health consequences of obesity score significantly higher among adults on perceived effectiveness compared to ads that are funny or neutral"
comparison between smoking and obesity still seems appropriate so =>
"sad or frightening ads that are highly emotional and feature the serious health consequences of obesity score significantly higher among adults on perceived effectiveness compared to ads that are funny or neutral"
Sign of the times really everbody has to pussy foot around all issues these days, no one has brought it on themselves, it has to be a 'condition' everyone wants a nice label, preferably with a handout.
That said, fortunately my GP never got the memo, basically told me I'm a fat git and to sort your life out before you die, he encouraged me to get down the gym and sort my diet out through NHS schemes (visit to a nutitionist? and discounted gym, so yes I took a handout of sorts
) whilst I have not been fully successful and am still large, I am a lot less large and slowly reducing, the clarity through his harsh reality check rather than some wooly words helped me, because even when you know you've let things slip, when you get smacked in the face with it by someone with some authority, well, that's another matter entirely.
Of course I don't condone fat shaming as complete randoms shouldn't be going around doing such things unqualified without knowing who they are talking to and what their issues might be, but people sometimes need a prod and guidance on how to do these things in a healthy way with a balanced diet packed with the right stuff, it is not simply a reduction in food, its eating the right foods, I think I eat more now than ever but the meals are better and weight is dropping off.
That said, fortunately my GP never got the memo, basically told me I'm a fat git and to sort your life out before you die, he encouraged me to get down the gym and sort my diet out through NHS schemes (visit to a nutitionist? and discounted gym, so yes I took a handout of sorts
) whilst I have not been fully successful and am still large, I am a lot less large and slowly reducing, the clarity through his harsh reality check rather than some wooly words helped me, because even when you know you've let things slip, when you get smacked in the face with it by someone with some authority, well, that's another matter entirely.Of course I don't condone fat shaming as complete randoms shouldn't be going around doing such things unqualified without knowing who they are talking to and what their issues might be, but people sometimes need a prod and guidance on how to do these things in a healthy way with a balanced diet packed with the right stuff, it is not simply a reduction in food, its eating the right foods, I think I eat more now than ever but the meals are better and weight is dropping off.
You say that with such authority and conviction, but I don't think you really understand the problem well enough to make such a definitive judgement.
Consider the following things;
- Junk food, which is designed and targeted directly at children, and to be addictive, simultaneously using large amounts of fat and sugar
- An environment that's saturated with food, engineered solely to provide nothing other than 100% pleasure but 0% actual useful nutrition
- A transformation of the high street, which has seen 1000% increase in the number of fast food and takeaway outlets, with no controls in place
- Levels of sugary drinks which are targeted at children, resulting in them getting the diseases of alcoholics (type-2 diabetes and fatty liver disease) due to excess, unregulated energy intake.
- Food which is hyper palatable, and energy dense - which offers practically zero satiety, resulting in the ability to drastically exceed normal levels of energy intake
Not because they suddenly lose all sense of personal responsibility, or because they suddenly become lazy, but quite simply because in an environment such as ours - most people can't hold out against the onslaught of a highly toxic environment, which is why between 60-70% of the UK population are overweight or obese, and 28% of children are obese.
Consider that the obesity epidemic has only been around since the 1980s, we're still biologically the same people we were back then - there's no real evidence for a change in our biology that's driving obesity, but what did change in the 1980s was the onslaught of the food industry and the processed food revolution, that is what's driving the root cause of obesity - it's more of an environmental exposure, than a failure of personal responsibility.
If you don't believe me, go to your local petrol station and just look around at what's for sale, it's totally unrecognisable from a petrol station from 15-20 years ago, the way you're herded through a maze of junk food, sweets and junk - then offered 2 for 1 deals at the tills, is it any wonder the health of the nation is where it is?
I don't think anyone denies any of that, but people can still take responsibility for what they eat.
Soldato
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Just another thing to add to the list of things Millennials blame for their own failures.
It isn't my fault I can't get a job.
It isn't my fault I feel sad all the time.
It isn't my fault I can't afford a house.
It isn't my fault I chose computer games over going to sleep.
....and now....it isn't my fault I am fat.
It isn't my fault I can't get a job.
It isn't my fault I feel sad all the time.
It isn't my fault I can't afford a house.
It isn't my fault I chose computer games over going to sleep.
....and now....it isn't my fault I am fat.
Not really, not when the environment is so highly rigged against eating healthily, a minority of people can eat healthily - but the majority can't, hence the situation we're in. (which is entirely expected and predicted as far back as the 1980s)
On the whole, personal responsibility doesn't stand a chance in the western world, the human body has evolved to crave sweet energy dense food, it's in your DNA to crave sugar and fat, the hormones responsible for generating sensations of appetite, will generally override most attempts at self control, most people simply cave in because those hormonal responses are so strong. Not everybody - but most people. (again, this is entirely expected with the majority being overweight or obese)
In general, if you look at the rest of the world - populations which are healthy and have low rates of obesity, don't have a western diet. On the contrary - countries which are importing the western diet are rapidly experiencing an increase of in rates of obesity; Italy for example. Historically very healthy, is experiencing a drastic rise in obesity, not because they've all suddenly gotten lazy - but because the fast food industry has found it's way there and is starting to replace the native mediterranean diet.
https://www.theguardian.com/society...s-gone-regions-children-are-fattest-in-europe
Yes, there's a correlation between the availability of crap food and obesity. You're not going to convince me that people shouldn't be held responsible for taking care of themselves though.
But which people?
We all know someone who's 20-30 stone, who eats 4x Big Macs every day - has been told by the doctor, doesn't care - and will be dead within 1-5 years.
But such people are not the root cause of the problem, children are the root cause of the problem.
The reason children are the root cause, is that they're far more susceptible to advertising and messaging, and once they become 'hooked' on bad food, and subsequently become overweight - they're far more likely to carry that behaviour on into later life and remain obese.
So to say 'People should just take responsibility for themselves' doesn't really get you very far, when you look at how children can be so easily targeted and exploited by the food industry, which essentially becomes the root cause of the entire problem.
Last time I checked, parents were responsible for their children's health.
EDIT: To add to that, I get that parents can't monitor their children 100% of the time. I drank and smoked far too much up until quite recently, and that started when I was still a child. If I get liver and / or lung cancer, guess who that's on? I won't be blaming anyone else - I still chose to do those things. I think I certainly qualified as addicted, but that didn't mean that I couldn't stop as I now have.
If you got lung cancer from smoking, I wouldn't blame you outright, I'd place a majority of the blame on the tobacco industry.
I'd place the blame there, because it's the tobacco industry who deliberately design and sell a product that they know will kill roughly 50% of the people who buy it, they put it on the shelves of shops in full knowledge of this. They also design their products on purpose to be as addictive as possible, so you'll keep on buying them, it's no accident that cigarettes are one of the most addictive things and so difficult to quit. They do all this for one reason; to make money. If the tobacco industry didn't exist, there'd be hardly any incidences of lung cancer at all, likewise - if the current food industry didn't exist, there be hardly any incidents of obesity at all.
Interestingly, the food industry is playing the exact same game that the tobacco industry played in the 1980s, the tactics are the same; blame the consumer. "We don't put the cigarette in the mouth of the consumer and light it" in an attempt to absolve themselves of blame, but it only got them so far before legislation kicked in.
Whilst parents are supposed to be responsible for their children's health, again - look at the insane environment we've created. Inner city children leaving school at 3pm, on their way home - are bombarded with an array of shops and take away shops, offering cheap sweets, 'kids deals' on junk food, fizzy drinks, 2 for 1 deals on chocolate and so on, parents don't stand a chance unless they lock them up in their rooms.
Fair enough - we'll have to agree to disagree. I think we should be free to make our own choices in life, and the only way for that to work is if we accept that people have to be responsible for their own actions. I certainly didn't start smoking without knowing that it was bad for me or that it was addictive, which in my opinion makes me responsible.
We have choices and are ultimately responsible for our own personal well being but when people are conditioned from a young age to eat food that is full of additives and junk then the food industry also bares some of that responsibility especially when they’re marketing some of these foods as good for you, such as sugar laden cereals , fruit juice with a ton of added sugar etc , we can blame the parents but if they don’t know that the food they’re serving their kids is junk and has no real nutritional value then the food industry needs to take some of that responsibility and do something.
I think the reduction of adding sugars in food is a step in the right direction by the food industry but people also need educated.
Associate
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In most cases obesity is indeed down to the individual and will power is a massive part of it.
I am... or have been... a bit on the podgy side, not overly fat but heavy (dense
) - i lost 3 and a half stone in a fitness drive a few years back by simply eating better and going to the gym.
I am under no illusions over who was responsible for my weight... i am also quite happy to have folk point that out to me.
I am... or have been... a bit on the podgy side, not overly fat but heavy (dense
) - i lost 3 and a half stone in a fitness drive a few years back by simply eating better and going to the gym.I am under no illusions over who was responsible for my weight... i am also quite happy to have folk point that out to me.
It's highly questionable whether parents don't know what's in the food they give their children. How long have we known about excessive amounts of sugar in food such as cereal? There really is no excuse for not knowing this stuff, especially as everything is a quick google search away now. Of course a lot of them will claim ignorance, because who wants to admit that they're too lazy to give their children a proper diet? What a sad state of affairs that people are trying to excuse that behaviour.
Soldato
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Lack of willpower to stay healthy is exactly what it is. It's a lot easier to sit on the sofa eating takeaways than doing exercise and preparing fresh wholesome food.
I know it, you know it but many people don’t know that even some foods that seem healthy and innocent are full of junk and sugar and this is mainly down to how those foods are marketed and portrayed to be good, this is probably a big reason no one questions what they are eating or giving their children. Low fat yoghurt, 30% less fat, must be good right ? cuz the advert made it seem that way! In reality the fat has mostly been replaced by sugar and now many people think fat is bad for you when it isn’t, bad fat is bad.
Many people are ignorant and do not proactively seek out the knowledge to help themselves provide healthier meals to themselves or their families, but is it any wonder when so much marketing leads people to believe the food they are buying is good for you.
We need more responsible advertising and packaging on ‘unhealthy’ food and promote awareness to what is considered good and bad