Obesity is not a choice

[Felon]

Indeed, temptation exists, immoral marketing campaigns with large sums of money behind them exist and children are more susceptible to these things. I still hold people responsible for their own actions though. I just don't find it acceptable that people can claim that they're not in control of what they eat. It's not always easy, but then that's life.

But this is the problem isn't it, it feels like there's a cognitive dissonance occurring;

If you accept that large sums of money are being spent deliberately to target children in selling unnecessarily high-energy, hyper-palatable junk food that only harms them (which you agree with). Which ultimately leads them to engage in behaviors which they carry on into later life, resulting in them being obese into adulthood, (which you agree with) then it's simply illogical to say 'they're responsible for making those choices, so it's ultimately their fault'

It's illogical, because left to their own devices, in a world where they're not targeted and bombarded by the food industry, they wouldn't become obese and there wouldn't be this problem - because obesity didn't exist as a problem until the processed fast-food industry was created in the 1980s, it's the environment we've created which is the driving force behind the issue, not personal choice, surely you can see this?

 

[R.P.L]

But this is the problem isn't it, it feels like there's a cognitive dissonance occurring;

If you accept that large sums of money are being spent deliberately to target children in selling unnecessarily high-energy, hyper-palatable junk food that only harms them (which you agree with). Which ultimately leads them to engage in behaviors which they carry on into later life, resulting in them being obese into adulthood, (which you agree with) then it's simply illogical to say 'they're responsible for making those choices, so it's ultimately their fault'

It's illogical, because left to their own devices, in a world where they're not targeted and bombarded by the food industry, they wouldn't become obese and there wouldn't be this problem - because obesity didn't exist as a problem until the processed fast-food industry was created in the 1980s, it's the environment we've created which is the driving force behind the issue, not personal choice, surely you can see this?

Yes I see that, in the same way that you can surely see that if people weren't weak and stupid and irresponsible then they wouldn't get fat regardless of how much companies spent on pushing their unhealthy food? From an ideological viewpoint I'll always be in favour of personal liberty (with which comes responsibility), hence my stance on this. If we end up with stricter advertising regulations then I won't be against that, but telling people that they're not responsible for maintaining a healthy diet is not necessary to achieve that, and would be counterproductive to the goal of reducing obesity. In short, the realistic answer is to reduce irresponsible advertising AND ALSO to encourage people to take responsibility for their diet.

 

[gary996]

You say that with such authority and conviction, but I don't think you really understand the problem well enough to make such a definitive judgement.

Consider the following things;

• Junk food, which is designed and targeted directly at children, and to be addictive, simultaneously using large amounts of fat and sugar
• An environment that's saturated with food, engineered solely to provide nothing other than 100% pleasure but 0% actual useful nutrition
• A transformation of the high street, which has seen 1000% increase in the number of fast food and takeaway outlets, with no controls in place
• Levels of sugary drinks which are targeted at children, resulting in them getting the diseases of alcoholics (type-2 diabetes and fatty liver disease) due to excess, unregulated energy intake.
• Food which is hyper palatable, and energy dense - which offers practically zero satiety, resulting in the ability to drastically exceed normal levels of energy intake

In the final analysis, if you perform an experiment - where you take healthy, responsible individuals and you drop them into an environment that contains a western diet, over time most of them become overweight or obese. (this happened wit Native Americans in the US, when they went from their reservations into the cities)

Not because they suddenly lose all sense of personal responsibility, or because they suddenly become lazy, but quite simply because in an environment such as ours - most people can't hold out against the onslaught of a highly toxic environment, which is why between 60-70% of the UK population are overweight or obese, and 28% of children are obese.

Consider that the obesity epidemic has only been around since the 1980s, we're still biologically the same people we were back then - there's no real evidence for a change in our biology that's driving obesity, but what did change in the 1980s was the onslaught of the food industry and the processed food revolution, that is what's driving the root cause of obesity - it's more of an environmental exposure, than a failure of personal responsibility.

If you don't believe me, go to your local petrol station and just look around at what's for sale, it's totally unrecognisable from a petrol station from 15-20 years ago, the way you're herded through a maze of junk food, sweets and junk - then offered 2 for 1 deals at the tills, is it any wonder the health of the nation is where it is?

What a load of twaddle

Im Sorry but the parson to blame is the one looking back at you in a mirror (or parents if they let their kids get fat)
If you go take some drugs it is your decision same with drink. You have chosen to do this.
What should happenn is, if your doctor says to you "you have to change your life style or you are going to die, become a burden etc and you give it oarlocks. Then you fund your own health care
Would save the NHS millions

 

[Felon]

Yes I see that, in the same way that you can surely see that if people weren't weak and stupid and irresponsible then they wouldn't get fat regardless of how much companies spent on pushing their unhealthy food? From an ideological viewpoint I'll always be in favour of personal liberty (with which comes responsibility), hence my stance on this. If we end up with stricter advertising regulations then I won't be against that, but telling people that they're not responsible for maintaining a healthy diet is not necessary to achieve that, and would be counterproductive to the goal of reducing obesity. In short, the realistic answer is to reduce irresponsible advertising AND ALSO to encourage people to take responsibility for their diet.

Nobody would disagree with a message asking people to take more responsibility for their diet, but it's been done countless times and it's never worked anywhere, ever. In exactly the same way that asking people to not smoke, never made an iota of difference to the numbers of people smoking. The biggest hit to smoking came in the wake of advertising legislation and actual physical bans on smoking in public places.

I also wouldn't go as far as to call people weak or stupid, instead - I'd say they're behaving in exactly the way I'd expect them to behave in this environment. And remember, if you're going to call people weak, stupid and irresponsible then you have to apply that to the majority of all people, because it's a problem that affects the majority, and furthermore - only apply it after 1980, because prior to that, the problem didn't even exist at all.

Again, I got back to the Native American example, you had people who'd lived for thousands of years according to their traditional values, yet as soon as you introduce them to a different environment - guess what? all those traditional values simply do not stand up, to the onslaught of a western diet, the result is the highest rates of obesity and type-2 diabetes in the Unites States. It's not because they're weak or stupid (far from it) it's because hardly anybody can withstand that environment and remain healthy. (Hence the state of US health)

 

[Felon]

What a load of twaddle

Im Sorry but the parson to blame is the one looking back at you in a mirror (or parents if they let their kids get fat)
If you go take some drugs it is your decision same with drink. You have chosen to do this.
What should happenn is, if your doctor says to you "you have to change your life style or you are going to die, become a burden etc and you give it oarlocks. Then you fund your own health care
Would save the NHS millions

Simply blaming a fat person for being fat and ignoring all the other factors which have led up to it, seems to me to be the very definition of stupidity, ignorance and foolishness on your part.

Again, suppose a 13 year old boy, who is targeted left right and centre by the food industry, via advertising, social media, etc. Because he's only 13, is more susceptible to advertising, he ends up spending his pocket money on too many fizzy drinks and sweets and becomes obese and addicted, then later in life develops type-2 diabetes and heart disease - presumably you'd be happy to lay the blame squarely at his door, and not place a single modicum of blame at the door of the food industry?

Also, withholding healthcare from obese people if they can't change their habits, is probably one of the stupidest and ridiculous ideas anybody could ever come up with.

It's stupid, because you'd presumably sit there and allow the food industry to wreck the health of the entire nation, then when people get sick you say 'sorry it was your fault' and let them die from complications of metabolic disease. Causing untold amounts of misery, unnecessary death which would ultimately cost far more money, than simply enacting common sense legislation on the food industry that helped to prevent the entire problem in the first place, like we did we smoking. (banning advertising, smoking in public places)

 

[ttaskmaster]

NVM

 

[R.P.L]

Explain how making fun of someone is different to making fun of someone, compared to making fun of someone, versus.... oh, I dunno.... making fun of someone.


My point is that it doesn't matter in the first place whether something is a choice or not, you won't change anything by behaving like a **** toward them.

Nice try - you're not going to bait me into wasting any more time on you.

 

[bushmins]

You know when fatties are truly lost? When a fat power ranger is cast. OP said that the next generation of kids will be unhealthy, but it's a bit late for that. So many fat kids and their fat mothers at my sons school, it's a sad sight. My son, being thin, is definitely the odd one out now.

 

[Freakbro]

Nobody would disagree with a message asking people to take more responsibility for their diet, but it's been done countless times and it's never worked anywhere, ever. In exactly the same way that asking people to not smoke, never made an iota of difference to the numbers of people smoking. The biggest hit to smoking came in the wake of advertising legislation and actual physical bans on smoking in public places.

I also wouldn't go as far as to call people weak or stupid, instead - I'd say they're behaving in exactly the way I'd expect them to behave in this environment. And remember, if you're going to call people weak, stupid and irresponsible then you have to apply that to the majority of all people, because it's a problem that affects the majority, and furthermore - only apply it after 1980, because prior to that, the problem didn't even exist at all.

Again, I got back to the Native American example, you had people who'd lived for thousands of years according to their traditional values, yet as soon as you introduce them to a different environment - guess what? all those traditional values simply do not stand up, to the onslaught of a western diet, the result is the highest rates of obesity and type-2 diabetes in the Unites States. It's not because they're weak or stupid (far from it) it's because hardly anybody can withstand that environment and remain healthy. (Hence the state of US health)

If you've not read it then I can recommend the book The Willpower Instinct - "The Science of Willpower"

It's an amazing book that goes into the psychological and physiological reactions of the brain/body response and gives a fantastic insight into what willpower is, how it works and how to strengthen it, while realising it's limitations.

Based on Stanford University psychologist Kelly McGonigal's wildly popular course "The Science of Willpower," The Willpower Instinct is the first book to explain the science of self-control and how it can be harnessed to improve our health, happiness, and productivity. Informed by the latest research and combining cutting-edge insights from psychology, economics, neuroscience, and medicine, The Willpower Instinct explains exactly what willpower is, how it works, and why it matters. For example, readers will learn: - Willpower is a mind-body response, not a virtue. It is a biological function that can be improved through mindfulness, exercise, nutrition, and sleep. - Willpower is not an unlimited resource. Too much self-control can actually be bad for your health. - Temptation and stress hijack the brain's systems of self-control, but the brain can be trained for greater willpower - Guilt and shame over your setbacks lead to giving in again, but self-forgiveness and self-compassion boost self-control. - Giving up control is sometimes the only way to gain self-control. - Willpower failures are contagious--you can catch the desire to overspend or overeat from your friends----but you can also catch self-control from the right role models. In the groundbreaking tradition of Getting Things Done, The Willpower Instinct combines life-changing prescriptive advice and complementary exercises to help readers with goals ranging from losing weight to more patient parenting, less procrastination, better health, and greater productivity at work.

 

[cheesyboy]

You know when fatties are truly lost? When a fat power ranger is cast. OP said that the next generation of kids will be unhealthy, but it's a bit late for that. So many fat kids and their fat mothers at my sons school, it's a sad sight. My son, being thin, is definitely the odd one out now.

What part of the country are you in?

My kids are 9 and 6 and there is only one fat kid in each of their classes, of about 30.

 

[R.P.L]

Nobody would disagree with a message asking people to take more responsibility for their diet, but it's been done countless times and it's never worked anywhere, ever.

So healthy eating campaigns have no effect on people's eating habits? I'd like to see some figures to back that up. If you mean that despite healthy eating campaigns people are still getting fatter then yes that's true, but there's no perfect solution (including banning advertising for unhealthy food - doing the same for tobacco certainly didn't stop people from smoking).

Besides, I'm not arguing that my position is the correct one to eradicate or reduce obesity per se, although it is true that if people applied some common sense and willpower then there would be a huge reduction (which will probably never happen). My point is that I take responsibility for my own diet, and only mine. I'd love for everyone else to do the same, but if they can't (which is inevitable to some extent, as is unhealthy food and irresponsible advertising) then it's their funeral (possibly literally) and that's pretty much all I have to say on the matter.

 

[ttaskmaster]

NVM

 

[R.P.L]

Can you not already see the rather large and obvious figures of all the fat people, then?
Despite government campaigns to get people away from fatty, then salty, then sugary foods, people continue to be fat. Do you really need a dozen statistical analyses and scientific studies to prove that people are indeed fat?
The campaigns failed.

Incredible - you literally excluded the bit where I addressed that exact point. You're really not too smart, are you?

 

[chrcoluk]

In a time where obesity is now a leading cause of death in the UK, and treating obesity related illnesses is costing the NHS billions, the BBC decides to put out this article...



https://www.bbc.com/news/health-49795808

Congrats. You've now given obese people another excuse to carry on as they are. It's not the junk food, sugary drinks and lack of exercise. It's got to be something more...

We risk turning the next generation of children into incredibly unhealthy people if things do not change, and articles like this certainly do not help. Get off your arse and stop eating crap, ffs. It's really not difficult.

The article needed writing.

Too many people think obesity has nothing to do with genes, illness etc. Its simply down to bad diet and exercise.
That may be true for some people, maybe even most people, but it isnt true for everyone.

The NHS approach to obesity is shameful to be honest, they even have a statement on their website, that they put if the patient tells them they are eating healthily and exercising that they assume the patient is not saying the truth and they dont believe in the premise of metabolism issues been caused by illnesses.

In my teens and twenties I ate a ton of junk food. Was skinny as a rake. I then after having getting a health condition put on weight rapidly and my diet now is the healthiest its been my entire life, at least in terms of fat content, calories. But you wouldnt recognise me if comparing to pictures of me 20 years ago.

If fat people didnt care then how come the weight loss industry is booming?

I am overweight, and believe me I know this is going to kill me before my siblings.

 

[FoxEye]

Personally, I know I can get thin because I've lost a lot of weight on previous occasions.

I mean I know I can take action to lose weight, but if it's not a choice in 2019 then I just have to accept my current weight. Or get fatter.

Weight, does that mean that getting fatter is also not a choice? Maybe I'll be 19 stone next year? I can't do anything about it, so I just have to hope my genes keep me at 13 stone whilst I eat all these doughnuts.

 

[ttaskmaster]

NVM

 

[Felon]

So healthy eating campaigns have no effect on people's eating habits? I'd like to see some figures to back that up. If you mean that despite healthy eating campaigns people are still getting fatter then yes that's true, but there's no perfect solution (including banning advertising for unhealthy food - doing the same for tobacco certainly didn't stop people from smoking).

I could get a whole bunch of figures, (because pretty much ever set of figures you'll find show that obesity is a growing problem) but the easiest way is to simply look around at the state of everybody's health, in countries which have a western / American diet.

Michelle Obama tried it, with the 'eat less, move more' campaign, and it made not a single iota of difference, we live in a world where there are more gyms than have ever existed before, full of exhausted overweight people desperate to lose weight, but it doesn't work and never will work - because you can't outrun a bad diet and lose weight in the long term.

There isn't a perfect solution to anything, but there are good solutions, some of my suggestions would be;

• Alter planning legislation, to place caps on the amount of fast food outlets within a certain radius, including a total ban, anywhere near schools.
• Introduce caps on the amount of added sugars and fats that go into processed food, with an outright ban on trans fats (which are poison)
• Ban 2 for 1 deals, junk-food mazes at checkouts,
• Modify supermarkets, so have far lower ratios of processed junk food, and higher ratios of actual real food (fruit, veg, meat, fish, dairy) (like how supermarkets used to be 20-30+ years ago)
• A complete blanket ban on advertising junk and processed food, to anybody, including on TV, social media, anywhere

Those are some of the things I know would make a difference, they're not my ideas, some of them have been put forward by actual obesity doctors and specialists in nutrition.

 

[Efour]

What part of the country are you in?

My kids are 9 and 6 and there is only one fat kid in each of their classes, of about 30.

He is lying.

 

[FishFluff]

My point is that it doesn't matter in the first place whether something is a choice or not, you won't change anything by behaving like a **** toward them.

It's not often I agree with your posts, but you're spot on here.

Obesity is a disease with many complex causes. People need to be supported, not ridiculed. Most people don't want to be obese. As ever there are some who are proud of their obese status and, thanks to the internet, these people get signal boosted, but they are very much outliers.

 

[chrcoluk]

In regards to my previous post, it doesnt mean I dont think anything should be done about encouraging healthier lifestyles tho.

e.g. I accept there is way too many fast food outlets, on my street alone is more than 10 takeaways which is ridiculous.
It is ironic tho this is happening whilst food portions are generally getting smaller, one form of food inflation is to shrink portions and they have shrunk considerably in the past 20 years.