OCUK Official IC Diamond/ Perihelion Test Results

i7 920 @ 4.2Ghz with 1.34 volts and 1.32VTT
EK Supreme HF Copper
2 x Thermochill PA 120.3s

Original compound was MX-2
All tests were 15min of LinX 4900mb memory used

** Application method was the cross method (see below) **

Before Compound:
Ambient Temp: 19
Idle Temp: 31
Load Temp: 64

ICD 24
Ambient Temp: 20
Idle Temp: 33
Load Temp: 63.5

During my first test I saw that the IC diamond 24 was >1c higher than the MX-2 under load even after > 8 hours cure time. I realised that this could well be because my MX-2 application method had been the cross approach. I reapplied the Diamond in the cross pattern and got the results above.

The diamond is a very thick paste that is tricky to apply to the IHS. This could be the reason why the pea method produced weaker results. MX-2 spreads easier from my experiance.


**EDIT**

The difficulty in spreading with the pea method with IC Diamond 24 could be to do with the EK Supreme's poor mounting mechanism

Read post http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=19331977&postcount=408

Thermally choked would be my guess - If the contact is spotty or the pressure is light or some combination of the two the results can be dominated to such an extent that it overrides the other variables in the thermal cascade so paste 1,2,3 measure only a degree or two difference.

as in the discussion on the previous page picture the block making contact with the IHS but not in areas where the core (s) are located, so the heat has to travel some distance across the IHS now the material resistance is maxed out as the IHS is of inadequate thickness to transfer the heat properly.

In heat sink design to get the heat to spread efficiently a base thickness of .160 inches is required for copper. More material generally does not add anything but less material and performance drops significantly @ .140 inches you can lose 2-3C and the sink becomes thermally choked. With an IHS you have much less material to spread heat and so the thermal resistance is so high that it dominates the result.

As an example of one factor dominating a result - in axial fan design for computers you have several sources of noise, bearing, tip vortices's, blade pass over the struts etc.

Tip vortices's being the loudest are the dominant source for noise. In fan design if you want to reduce noise it is not worth the effort to reduce secondary sources because the dominant tip vortex noise will still be X dBA. Reduce the tip noise and the secondary factors emerge from the background and can nowbe treated for noise reduction.

Same with the IHS thermal resistance as dominate other effects are masked.

the EK Supreme along with the Corsair seemed to be trending better than the other waterblocks.

I would really like to get some contact and pressure tests on some waterblocks, would you be interested in running some contact and pressure tests on your block? I'll send you a test kit.
 
Just to confirm, I have received IC Perihelon and IC Diamond 24 Carot and will test as soon as possible :-) (Thank you).
 
Ok I have done some testing today and these are the results I have come up with. I would like to say thanks for giving me the free tubes of Ic paste and the chance to test it.

This testing was done on a on a 2600k @4.8 with 1.41v@load using custom water cooling swiftech d5 pump - thermochil 120.2 rad and heatkiller 3.0 cpu block with backplate.

case temp was 27-29degrees for all testing

Artic Cooling MX-4
Idle max temp - 35 - 31 - 36 - 30
Pirme blend 10 minutes max temp 60 - 62 - 65 - 59


ICperihelion Ceramic Thermal Compound
Idle max temps 32 - 28 -33 -29
Prime blend 10 minutes max temp 60 - 63 - 66 - 59


ICdiamond 24 Carat Thermal Compound
Idle max temps 33 - 28 - 34 - 29
Prime blend 10 minutes max temp 59 - 61 - 64 - 58


To sum it up not much difference in all 3 thermal compounds on my rig though and the icdiamond 24 carat is what I am still using( with a bit of luck it will cure and be even better). I did find the ICperihelion nasty to get off the chip to clean and very hard to even get out the tube in the first place
 
Core i5 2500k O/C 4.6GHz @ 1.36vcore - Corsair H50-1 cooler. Coolermaster RC1100 Cosmos S. Using Prime95 on Small FFTs.

Stock Corsair H50 Paste:
Ambient: 22.0C
Idle: ~33C (29, 34, 34, 35)
Load:~70C (63, 69, 72, 72)

ICD:
Ambient: 22.0C
Idle: ~33C (30, 34, 34, 35)
Load: ~69C (63, 64, 72, 72)

What I will note, is that the temps seem to take longer to get back down to normal idle temps after being on full load with the ICDiamond. Anyone else getting that or do you think I've applied it wrong?
 
Very surprising results!! :eek::)

LAPPED TESTING


1) INTRODUCTION

After the unlapped (original) testing was carried out back in March 2011 involving MX-4, IC Perihelion and IC Diamond thermal compounds, Q6600 and IFX-14 heatsink were both hand lapped and same testing methodology was implemented and same BIOS settings (vcore, ram speed etc).
This is because it was found from unlapped contact test that the contact area (mating surface) between Q6600 IHS and IFX-14 base was quite narrow and formed an I shaped pattern. Hence lapping was done to increase the overall contact area and to see if that made any difference to core temperatures and how each thermal compound performed in lapped scenario. However this also affected the mounting force and pressure heavily. More information can be gained by clicking on the links as follows:

UNLAPPED information

-Post 291
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=18814406&postcount=291

-Post 346
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=18941593&postcount=346

-Post 388
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=19118209&postcount=388



LAPPED information

-Post 390
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=19133860&postcount=390

-Post 406
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=19315910&postcount=406



Q6600 Lapped
imag0148a.jpg



Thermalright IFX-14 Lapped
imag0152fy.jpg



The lapped testing was carried out in June 2011 and following are the application and testing dates for each thermal compound:

IC PERIHELION
04/06/2011(Application date) - 12/06/2011(Testing date)

MX-4
13/06/2011(Application date) - 19/06/2011(Testing date)

IC DIAMOND
20/06/2011(Application date) - 30/06/2011(Testing date)

In the case of IC Diamond the testing had to be forwarded further by 3 days as temps went as high as 7C compared to the testing days of IC Perihelion and MX-4. Plus I had exam in the way so couldn't do testing on the target date of 27 June.
Luckily the day temperatures on 30 June were more or less similar to the testing days temps of IC Perihelion and MX-4:).




2) RESULTS

IC (Innovation Cooling) recommends 5-5.5mm pea-sized blob in the middle. However during unlapped testing I found the recommended size insufficient for covering the whole of LGA 775 Q6600 IHS. Although the recommended size did cover most of IHS.

So for lapped testing I have applied slightly more of 7mm blob in the middle and it will be seen that this amount covered the entire IHS especially in the case of MX-4 and IC Diamond. :)


IC PERIHELION

perihelionapplicationla.png

7-7.5mm Pea-Sized Blob



TEST1 (Afternoon)

Ambient 19.0C

icperihelionlappedtest1.png




TEST2 (Evening)

Ambient 19.1C

icperihelionlappedtest2.png




TEST3 (Night)

Ambient 19.5C

icperihelionlappedtest3.png




Spread Pattern after Tests completion


Spread pattern on IFX-14 base




MX-4

pict0004uf.jpg

7mm Pea-Sized Blob


TEST1 (Afternoon)

Ambient 19.8C

mx4lappedtest1.png




TEST2 (Evening)

Ambient 20.0C

mx4lappedtest2.png




TEST3 (Night)

Ambient 20.0C

mx4lappedtest3.png




Spread Pattern after Tests completion


Spread Pattern on IFX-14 base




IC DIAMOND

pict0004mx.jpg

7mm Pea-Sized Blob



TEST1 (Afternoon)
Ambient 20.2C

icdiamondlappedtest1.png




TEST2 (Evening)
Ambient 21.0C

icdiamondlappedtest2.png




TEST3 (Night)
Ambient 21.1C

icdiamondlappedtest3.png




Spread Pattern after Tests completion


Spread Pattern on IFX-14 base


These have been very surprising results indeed!!:eek:

Compared to Unlapped raw results and without taking into account ambient for the time being;

IC PERIHELION
-Shown greatest reductions in load temps especially on the hottest cores with as much as 10C !!
-On the coolest cores the reductions was something like 2C overall during load
-Idle temps reduction was something like 1-2C


MX-4
-Also showed impressive performance with load temps reduced by 6-7C on hottest cores
-On the coolest cores the load temp reductions was something like 2-4C
-Idle temps reduction was around 1-1.5C


IC DIAMOND
-Surprisingly for [email protected], IC Diamond didn't show as much improvements as it did for [email protected].
-On the hottest cores the load temp reductions were around 1-2C only
-Surprisingly the coolest cores actually displayed increased temps of around 2C
-Idle temps were more or less same with slight decrease

However the above analysis is only rudimentary and we move into Analysis section to gain better insight and understanding.




3) ANALYSIS

mx4lappedtable.png


Comparing MX-4 unlapped vs lapped:

-Overall Delta T Idle improved by 1.05C after lapping
-Overall Delta T Load improved by 4.72C after lapping


icperihelionlappedtable.png


Comparing IC Perihelion unlapped vs lapped:

-Overall Delta T Idle improved by 2.3C after lapping
-Overall Delta T Load improved by 6.22C after lapping


icdiamondlappedtable.png


Comparing IC Diamond unlapped vs lapped:

-Overall Delta T Idle improved by 0.07C after lapping
-Overall Delta T Load improved by 1.40C after lapping

Converting the above tables into graphs

graph1q.png

Graph1

In graph1 IC Perihelion and IC Diamond seem to be on a similar level load testing wise while in idle IC Diamond seems to have given higher temps. IC Perihelion seems to beat MX-4 in idle temps ignoring ambient. However in load testing MX-4 comes on top.


graph2s.png

Graph2

In graph2, in terms of the difference between average load and average idle, both IC Diamond and MX-4 even out each other while IC Perihelion gives higher difference. Regarding the temp difference between Average Idle and ambient, IC Diamond seems to produce higher values overall while IC Perihelion and MX-4 seem to perform more or less similar.


graph3.png

Graph3

In graph3, IC Diamond seems to give out slightly higher Delta T Idle value overall while IC Perihelion has increased Delta T Load values compared to the other two thermal compounds. MX-4 comes on top in Delta T Load reduction.


graph4.png

Graph4

One thing very striking in graph4 is that the performance gap between the three thermal compounds has reduced significantly compared to unlapped testing. Now I can't be sure if this is due to improvements in contact or reduction in mounting pressure overall due to lapping.


As stated on innovation cooling website that there are 3 areas for troubleshooting performance of a thermal compound:

1) Pressure
2) Contact
3) Application (of thermal compound)



Application
One thing that can be noticed is that if we only compare raw lapped tests then overall there doesn't seem to be a lot of performance difference between the three thermal compounds. Also from pics above it can be seen that thermal compounds covered the entire IHS with IC Perihelion almost covering it. This may be due to slight mounting error or the way thermal compound spread out under pressure and heat.
MX-4 again seems to behave slightly differently with showing regions of no compound layer in the middle and that is where contact makes the least impact on Cpu IHS. This is strange phenomena.

However since all three thermal compounds cover the overall Cpu IHS very well, I don't think application will be a major factor that is hindering performance of thermal compounds.


Contact
However one thing that has been stated in this thread is that if the contact and pressure are bottlenecking (less contact and low pressure) the rapid heat transfer from Cpu IHS/Heatsink Base to heatsink pipes or in words creating bigger Heat Dam, then the performance difference between the thermal compounds may well be only 1-2C.

Referring to Post 406 in the Introduction, the 4 cores of Q6600 reside in the area of greatest contact and pressure. Since cores are the dominant factor in generating heat especially during load, this means being in the right place will result in greater transfer of heat thus reducing heat dam. So the contact area of Q6600 cores seems pretty good plus the contact area has become broader overall after lapping and achieving close to contact margins as stated by IC Diamond. However it may be noted that if we had different contact pattern after lapping, then thermal compounds again may well behave differently.


Pressure
We now turn to the largest dominant factor; Mounting Pressure.

Unlapped Testing, Post 388:

Average Mounting Pressure = 69.90 PSI
Mounting Force = 38.68 lbf


Lapped Testing, Post 406:

Average Mounting Pressure =53.58 PSI
Mounting Force = 20.53 lbf

After lapping the average mounting pressure has been reduced by around 23% while the mounting force has almost halved!! This is significant.

This is mainly due to shaving of metal during lapping so now slack has occured. It has been discussed that one method to alleviate this reduced pressure is to use washer as part of mounting system. It has also been suggested that increased pressure should also yield an increase in the size of contact profile.

The reduced pressure may well have affected IC Diamond performance although MX-4 showed greater gains. This may well be due to MX-4 being less viscous and thinner thus adjusting to even lower pressures. IC Diamond being a thicker compound may well require more pressure in order to perform optimally. I think IC Perihelion also benefitted more from improved contact profile than from pressure.


However I think there may be other factors that may well have affected IC Diamond performance and also possibly other thermal compounds.

Weather
During the day of testing for both MX-4 and IC Perihelion, it was raining outside for the whole time. Although this didn't affect the ambient temps much, but overall the environment felt cooler. Since room window was only open to 0.8inch from closing position as this is part of procedure, a lot of air couldn't move into the room.
However it was noted that rainy weather accompanied moderate winds and this would have pushed some cooler air into the room. Thus case fans and heatsink fans also drawing in colder air giving advantage to both MX-4 and IC Perihelion.
The nature of weather, the wind speed and direction are the uncontrolled factors and can affect the performance of thermal compounds.

In the case of IC Diamond, the weather fluctuated throughout the day from being sunny to cloudy to moderate rain accompanying winds to some extent.


Dust
The coolermaster HAF series especially HAF 922 (my case) and HAF 932 are known as dust magnets and tend to attract a lot of dust in short space of time. It is possible that dust build up on fan profiles impeded airflow thus affecting performance.


Fan speeds
In the Post 291 I gave a general outline of fan speeds during idle and load. We also saw that fans never spin at the same speed and that there is always some give or take fan rotations from the average fan speed. Although this shouldn't affect the performance as the loading is same; nonetheless this factor can't be ignored.


However to summarise the unlapped and lapped testing so far, the results from graph4 for both testing are presented here:

UNLAPPED Testing

overalldeltattable.png



LAPPED Testing

overalllappedresults.png


The above values correspond with what I stated when analysing table of results for lapped vs unlapped for overall delta T idle and overall delta T load:)



4) CONCLUSION

Lapped testing has been very interesting indeed and seems to produce results quite different from unlapped testing. Lapping has had most positive influence on IC Perihelion where hottest core temps reduced by 8-10C without taking into account ambient. This pattern was then followed by MX-4. IC Diamond seems to have been least affected by lapping for [email protected]. Although for [email protected], it produced more impressive results. May be that was one off or IC Diamond works better even in more hot conditions.

From the lapped testing it can be seen that application of thermal compounds in each case was very good as thermal compounds managed to cover almost or all of CPU IHS thus 7mm of blob proved to be more useful than the recommended 5-5.5mm.

Lapping also had positive impact on contact profile in that it managed to get broader overall and also yielding 'close to contact' margins. Contact was strongest in the area where Q6600 cores reside i.e. in the upper half of the CPU. Thus facilitating improved heat transfer.

The pressure seems to be the weakest link as the dominant factor as lapping not only reduced mounting pressure by about 23-24% but the mounting force itself almost halved.
It has been discussed that placing washer as part of IFX-14 mounting system should help in increasing the pressure and reducing the slack.

As stated weather along with other factors may well have affected IC Diamond performance and this could be true for other thermal compounds aswell.

However overall the performance gap between the thermal compounds have reduced significantly with only 0.91C between IC Diamond and MX-4, with MX-4 coming on top in this investigation followed by IC Diamond followed by IC Perihelion. MX-4 is still a top contender and IC Perihelion still can't seem to top MX-4 despite performance gap closing in.

As the testing involves plenty of numbers, it is likely I may have made a mistake somewhere. Please let me know.

This paves the way for Washer Modded Lapped Testing

Many thanks

WingZero30:cool:
 
F
an speeds
In the Post 291 I gave a general outline of fan speeds during idle and load. We also saw that fans never spin at the same speed and that there is always some give or take fan rotations from the average fan speed. Although this shouldn't affect the performance as the loading is same; nonetheless this factor can't be ignored.

In your fan test was that for all compounds or just a general fan evaluation? PWM Disabled for all tests?

One thought is that straddling a set point on temperature fan speed could ramp up or down between compound tests with a couple of degrees difference.

Pressure is at the threshold around 50 PSI, that in conjunction with a 3 day cure which implies a low pressure - I usually do not see any cure times I generally test between 60 and 90 PSI and mostly around 90 which gets me to the BLT fairly quickly so I do not have to wait long for a result when I am impatient.

I have mic'ed it with a couple of glass slides and synthetic IHS @ 60 PSI and I usually get 95 -98% of the bond line thickness in about 2hours @ around 20C ambient, overnight at that pressure yields another 1/2 C at most. A little higher heat, 30 to 50C should enhance the spread quite a bit & people regularly report cure times higher but they are usually sub 50 C an off optimum point. 2 C seems like a lot to me but at the threshold there I would expect an improvement with added pressure in cure time and overall number. Thinner compounds do reach the bond line at much lower pressures so usually see little improvement with added force as they are as far as they can go compression wise.
 
F

In your fan test was that for all compounds or just a general fan evaluation? PWM Disabled for all tests?

One thought is that straddling a set point on temperature fan speed could ramp up or down between compound tests with a couple of degrees difference.

It was a general fan evaluation to try to gain a better insight on fan speeds. Only the Akasa Viper fans and the front 140mm fan are in PWM.
The rest of the fans are spinning at full speed and even then it can be seen that there is some fluctuation in the speeds during idle and load.

For [email protected]

Fan0 (Akasa vipers + 140mm fan)
Idle speed: 848RPM +/- 30RPM Error = (30/848) x 100 = 3.54%
Load speed: 1721RPM +/- 25RPM Error = (25/1721) x 100 = 1.45%

Fan1 (Front 200mm fan)
Idle speed: 392RPM +/- 15RPM Error = (15/392) x 100 = 3.83%
Load speed: 414RPM +/- 27RPM Error = (27/414) x 100 = 6.52%

Fan2 (Top 200mm fan)
Idle speed: 742RPM +/- 5RPM Error = (5/742) x 100 = 0.67%
Load speed: 737RPM +/- 8RPM Error = (8/737) x 100 = 1.09%

Fan3 (Rear 120mm fan)
Idle speed: 1263 +/- 18RPM Error = (18/1263) x 100 = 1.42%
Load speed:1255 +/- 15RPM Error = (15/1255) x 100 = 1.20%

For the Washer Modded testing I will disable PWM to see if that has any impact on the test results;so Akasa Vipers and 140mm front fan will also be spinning at full speed at idle and load:)
 
It was a general fan evaluation to try to gain a better insight on fan speeds. Only the Akasa Viper fans and the front 140mm fan are in PWM.
The rest of the fans are spinning at full speed and even then it can be seen that there is some fluctuation in the speeds during idle and load.



For the Washer Modded testing I will disable PWM to see if that has any impact on the test results;so Akasa Vipers and 140mm front fan will also be spinning at full speed at idle and load:)

Generally you have some pulsing of flow in a stable situation, about 5% is usually what I figure for an average max.

Most influential would be the heat sink fans if modulation kicked in @ a 10-20% RPM reduction raising the CPU temp a degree or 2 so test runs on before and after are not directly comparable.

I tried on a couple of giveaways to get end users to disable PWM or at least note fan speeds for fan law correction later as ICD loses most I believe when it occurs but the more complex the testing the less data I get so maybe response was about 10% on the request. Like herding cats sometimes...

So if a bias exists there or not it just gets averaged in with the rest of the data.
 
Pressure is at the threshold around 50 PSI, that in conjunction with a 3 day cure which implies a low pressure - I usually do not see any cure times I generally test between 60 and 90 PSI and mostly around 90 which gets me to the BLT fairly quickly so I do not have to wait long for a result when I am impatient.

I have mic'ed it with a couple of glass slides and synthetic IHS @ 60 PSI and I usually get 95 -98% of the bond line thickness in about 2hours @ around 20C ambient, overnight at that pressure yields another 1/2 C at most. A little higher heat, 30 to 50C should enhance the spread quite a bit & people regularly report cure times higher but they are usually sub 50 C an off optimum point. 2 C seems like a lot to me but at the threshold there I would expect an improvement with added pressure in cure time and overall number. Thinner compounds do reach the bond line at much lower pressures so usually see little improvement with added force as they are as far as they can go compression wise.


So in your experience if mounting pressure is 60 PSI+, then BLT or thermal compound curing (appropriate thinning and spreading of thermal compound to cover Cpu IHS) should be achieved within in 1 day for IC Products.
From this stand point if IC Products can achieve BLT in one day then MX-4 should achieve it even quicker as it is less viscous and thus more thinner.


Generally you have some pulsing of flow in a stable situation, about 5% is usually what I figure for an average max.

Most influential would be the heat sink fans if modulation kicked in @ a 10-20% RPM reduction raising the CPU temp a degree or 2 so test runs on before and after are not directly comparable.

I tried on a couple of giveaways to get end users to disable PWM or at least note fan speeds for fan law correction later as ICD loses most I believe when it occurs but the more complex the testing the less data I get so maybe response was about 10% on the request. Like herding cats sometimes...

So if a bias exists there or not it just gets averaged in with the rest of the data.

As there are many variables which are difficult or impossible to control such as nature of the weather on the day of testing, this does result in uncertainty. Hence why I like to test at three different periods in the day and then average the results in order to get a better picture overall.

No doubt disabling PWM for washer modded testing will result in this variable being taken out of equation aswell, hence making the investigation more accurate.

However researching IC website and as stated by you, the 3 major factors for thermal compound trouble shooting is:

1) Pressure
2) Contact
3) Application

In terms of application, 7mm of pea-sized blob in the middle worked best for me in order to ensure each thermal compound fully or almost covered the IHS.

Lapping resulted in 'broader' contact overall although further lapping may help but I don't think it will make substantial difference anymore since a good contact is already achieved in the right place where cores reside.

Pressure needs increasing and I do hope that washer can do the job as seen in the thermalright true heatsink thread which I posted couple of posts earlier.

If washer can do the job and result in average mounting pressure increasing to 70-80 PSI+, then all three major factors would have been taken care of:).

However as with any testing, uncertainty always exists.

One thing I have learnt so far in carrying out the testing is that the experimental results to some extent betray your preconceived idea of how the results will turn out even if they contain some form of human error.

For example in unlapped testing, IC Perihelion didn't do very well compared to other thermal compounds but in lapped testing it produced very positive results!!:) and I was very surprised myself.

The thrilling part of the whole investigation is that everything is unknown. You don't know how things will turn out. My next testing may well produce surprising results again.

Hence I agree with you in saying that repeated testing or involving many users will produce better results in that degree of uncertainty is reduced to a large extent, although it still remains there and experimental errors even out or are absorbed into the grand scheme of things.
So at the end of the day we just have to accept in the knowledge that we could only do our best knowing there were many variables which we couldn't control as long as major variables are accounted for and hence satisfaction is derived from giving it our best shot:cool:.
 
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It helps to be among the more paranoid when testing just about anything, you test from any vantage point forward and backward, upside down and Sundays, high resolution is critical as well as a keen eye for observation, varying test parameters to get details to emerge that can be leveraged to your advantage.

I have had moments in fan design when I thought I had made breakthroughs only to find out the airflow chamber under certain conditions created a recirculating flow that screwed up the measurement or when measuring fan noise a sound wave bounce off the floor at 1 meter intersected with the wave straight from the source creating a noise cancellation effect. Best to be a little humble and and a little nervous for the serious testing.

As noted before before the closer you get to optimum the more unstable things become. For example take a 25 cm high bar that is 4cm on a side and stand it upright on a perfectly level surface plate,reasonably stable at this point. Now reduce the the 4 cm dim to 2 cm or one cm or perhaps a 1/2 cm as some point other factors become critical,, a low or high spot on the plate, perhaps only a few millionths of an inch cause it to become unstable and fall over,vibration from a passing car or a
foot step or an immeasurable incline in the setup can cause failure to stand.

These PC platforms have all kinds of tolerance issues, Stacked mechanical tolerances probably of +/- .005 on each piece of mounting hardware, board thickness, unbalanced mounts, board flex etc.

I think a liberal view would be to say most here measured within +/- 2 C on their ambient maybe +/- 1 C on their thermal sensors along with factors of fan speed, air recirculation, amount of compound used, contact, pressure with software variables, age of compounds, cleanliness of the setup...

So no one test is perfect as in this format I can say things like 80% saw an average improvement of X y or z it balances out with a 95% confidence.

When I test competitors compounds I never average multiple tests as I think it introduces a bias on my part, I always take the better number for comparison because it usually means I have it working as it should and not at some lessor number where I had an error in the setup.

IC Perihelion - I am struggling with a bit, on the last German giveaway in which I had no forum participation we had approx 90 returns and was only on average 1 C off the IC Diamond averages although we 17 no results for the Perihelion out of the 90 whereas for IC Diamond we only had 1 no result out of 126 tests. The Perihelion even with the high no result number was second only to IC Diamond. From my own tests I know it,s a great compeitor.

While measured viscosity is exactly the same as IC Diamond and the chemical make up is nearly identical except for aluminum oxide over diamond it's physical characteristics are different and responds better under better contact and pressure. It may be that another application method would be better although I would hate to have to resort to something like a spatula type spreading.

What's interesting from a marketing point is that some make a rough equivalent argument of a couple of C between compounds or cost savings yet most here expressed little interest in it and in countries where per capita is only $3,000 a year and IC Diamond 24 is offered for purchase in 10 easy payments
it still sells better than the Perihelion in retail and at nearly the same volumes that I get out of equivalent US or Euro online retail stores although Perihelion is twice IC Diamond sale in those repair and SI markets.

One thing I have learnt so far in carrying out the testing is that the experimental results to some extent betray your preconceived idea of how the results will turn out even if they contain some form of human error.

I always learn something from these tests

7mm - probably need less when pressure increases
 
Last edited:
It helps to be among the more paranoid when testing just about anything, you test from any vantage point forward and backward, upside down and Sundays, high resolution is critical as well as a keen eye for observation, varying test parameters to get details to emerge that can be leveraged to your advantage.

I have had moments in fan design when I thought I had made breakthroughs only to find out the airflow chamber under certain conditions created a recirculating flow that screwed up the measurement or when measuring fan noise a sound wave bounce off the floor at 1 meter intersected with the wave straight from the source creating a noise cancellation effect. Best to be a little humble and and a little nervous for the serious testing.

As noted before before the closer you get to optimum the more unstable things become. For example take a 25 cm high bar that is 4cm on a side and stand it upright on a perfectly level surface plate,reasonably stable at this point. Now reduce the the 4 cm dim to 2 cm or one cm or perhaps a 1/2 cm as some point other factors become critical,, a low or high spot on the plate, perhaps only a few millionths of an inch cause it to become unstable and fall over,vibration from a passing car or a
foot step or an immeasurable incline in the setup can cause failure to stand.

These PC platforms have all kinds of tolerance issues, Stacked mechanical tolerances probably of +/- .005 on each piece of mounting hardware, board thickness, unbalanced mounts, board flex etc.

I think a liberal view would be to say most here measured within +/- 2 C on their ambient maybe +/- 1 C on their thermal sensors along with factors of fan speed, air recirculation, amount of compound used, contact, pressure with software variables, age of compounds, cleanliness of the setup...

So no one test is perfect as in this format I can say things like 80% saw an average improvement of X y or z it balances out with a 95% confidence.

When I test competitors compounds I never average multiple tests as I think it introduces a bias on my part, I always take the better number for comparison because it usually means I have it working as it should and not at some lessor number where I had an error in the setup.

IC Perihelion - I am struggling with a bit, on the last German giveaway in which I had no forum participation we had approx 90 returns and was only on average 1 C off the IC Diamond averages although we 17 no results for the Perihelion out of the 90 whereas for IC Diamond we only had 1 no result out of 126 tests. The Perihelion even with the high no result number was second only to IC Diamond. From my own tests I know it,s a great compeitor.

While measured viscosity is exactly the same as IC Diamond and the chemical make up is nearly identical except for aluminum oxide over diamond it's physical characteristics are different and responds better under better contact and pressure. It may be that another application method would be better although I would hate to have to resort to something like a spatula type spreading.

What's interesting from a marketing point is that some make a rough equivalent argument of a couple of C between compounds or cost savings yet most here expressed little interest in it and in countries where per capita is only $3,000 a year and IC Diamond 24 is offered for purchase in 10 easy payments
it still sells better than the Perihelion in retail and at nearly the same volumes that I get out of equivalent US or Euro online retail stores although Perihelion is twice IC Diamond sale in those repair and SI markets.



I always learn something from these tests

7mm - probably need less when pressure increases

After having gone through this thread up till now, computer cooling is indeed a very deep and complex subject. I would even say on par with cpu, gpu, motherboard design although the latters have different design objectives.

Before participating in this thread, I just had a basic understanding of thermal compounds acting as interface between cpu and heatsink i.e. to cover the gaps just like many fellow ocukers would have had similar understanding.:D

Now it seems the more I delve into the subject matter, the more complex it becomes. You are right in saying that near optimisation, more factors get introduced and they need to be carefully controlled to ensure accuracy.

However being a user tester, it may not be possible for me to keep track of all the variables such as air recirculation etc . Side fan has been know to disrupt airflow and to introduce turbulence and totally messing the cooling. Hence I never use side fan.

As for not averaging competitor results; wouldn't this equally apply to IC products? Although I average the tests to obtain overall value, my testing results are open to interpretation.
As there are higher and lower results values as seen in the tests for each compound, then average value is taken to even out the results with the introduction of experimental errors i.e. +/- error values.

Taking IC Diamond and MX-4 as an example in the case of lapped testing:

IC Diamond overall delta T load (average value) = 46.48C

Test 1 showed a highest delta T load value =47.55C
Test 3 showed a lowest delta T load value = 45.50C


MX-4 overall delta T load (average value) = 45.57C

Test 1 showed highest delta T load = 46.20C
Test 3 showed lowest delta T load = 45.00C

So depending on how I felt about the tests, I could have taken IC Diamond test 3 and MX-4 test 1 and then shown IC Diamond beating MX-4 by 0.7C.

Or I could have taken IC Diamond test1 and MX-4 test 3 and then shown the MX-4 beating IC Diamond by 2.55C.

So again my results are open to interpretation.
 
About averaging - I test on a lapped synthetic die and sink with 93% area contact and usually @ 90+ psi with metered power supplies for fans and heat source I can measure temps to a 1/100 of a degree, watts to a tenth, open bench 10 thermocouples. I know how much power going in and how much is being dissipated, digital tach with fan speed controlled to less than 2% , I have thermocouples located through the sink and die so I can measure the temp drop across the compound etc.

The parameters of the test are pretty disciplined with variations of less than .5C between mounts, occasionally a mount might be biased or paste separated or at lowered temps and pressure the compound may not have settled completely, in any event my setup is generally optimized for the testing of any compound with high pressures and good contact. (Much easier to work with than your set up)I do not have to worry about where I am on a thermal/pressure performance curve. In other words the setup pretty stable but if I get a variation of a degree I will take the better number.

In your setup/test series you have number of rotating parameters, low contact, high pressure or low pressure, high contact which would not be comparable results and easy to readily observe several degrees between tests

To qualify a result you have to quantify it. All paste thermal vs pressure curves are different, so where are you on this curve below? Where are you on the comparison compound curve ?

pastepressure.jpg


I have seen some compounds flatline at 30 psi @ their average particle size or optimum BLT a comparison paste might hit the same point @ 40 psi which is ok in a test series as long as you quantify it with something like "screws were torqued to x number of inch oz. or surfaces were machined lapped to within .0002" Now you pull both thermal performance curves and you can say now that under these conditions I have these results which are qualified because they were quantified and may be or maybe not line up on the idealized curve but they are at least qualified as data.

An extreme comparison might be a liquid metal that probably hits it's BLT @ 10 psi barely enough to hold the sink on now compare at the same mounting pressure compounds that do not hit their stride until 40-50 psi as an extreme you will see 10C + advantage for the Liquid Metal (LM) not to say the LM is not good just the comparison result is greatly exaggerated and the result is not quantified so is not a qualified result. LM pads can give a great result on a lapped sink but get some irregular contours and if you notice LM pads are very thin and do not bridge gaps well and will test poorly against comparison compounds under those conditions. Details are a requirement for serious testing, absence of detail end in a murky understanding of the final result when your test tolerance is several degrees and your comparison measurement is under the range of error.

Heat flows on a differential so a condition can arise where if the CPU is 30 C hotter than the MB it will pump heat/Watts to the MB or in watercooling or TEC's the temp can be lower than the MB and draw heat in the other direction. It's common practice to set up controlled thermal environments for tests by isolating components with water blocks on opposite sides to normalize heat flows or to test in wind tunnels with controlled airflow and temperatures. Kind of concentric circles of Dante's hell in a fractual or chaotic sense. I have seen engineers chase their tails with minutia for years, you always have to have the bigger picture in mind but aware of the detail significance. Only lightly touching the surface here more variables than you can shake a stick at :)

Modeling and testing air and heat flows is non trivial and back in the day a few years ago OEM's quoted to me their expense of about 3-$400k to do you basic box cooling to harmonize airflow,noise and thermals and double that for a high end workstation.

My testing aside what really counts is what the boots on the ground see on their desktop screen and fortunately there are other ways to skin a cat for accuracy, statistics have been around for hundreds of years vetted by the world greatest mathematicians, good mount bad mount, high and low airflow, varying power etc all the countless known and unknown variables get averaged in, even the biases
 
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About averaging - I test on a lapped synthetic die and sink with 93% area contact and usually @ 90+ psi with metered power supplies for fans and heat source I can measure temps to a 1/100 of a degree, watts to a tenth, open bench 10 thermocouples. I know how much power going in and how much is being dissipated, digital tach with fan speed controlled to less than 2% , I have thermocouples located through the sink and die so I can measure the temp drop across the compound etc.

The parameters of the test are pretty disciplined with variations of less than .5C between mounts, occasionally a mount might be biased or paste separated or at lowered temps and pressure the compound may not have settled completely, in any event my setup is generally optimized for the testing of any compound with high pressures and good contact. (Much easier to work with than your set up)I do not have to worry about where I am on a thermal/pressure performance curve. In other words the setup pretty stable but if I get a variation of a degree I will take the better number.
In your setup/test series you have number of rotating parameters, low contact, high pressure or low pressure, high contact which would not be comparable results and easy to readily observe several degrees between tests

No doubt since you have extra measuring equipment in addition to basic pc setup, you will have much greater control and overview of the testing. As your test setup already includes contact at 93% and pressure at 90 PSI+, this can only mean that major factors in your investigation have already been taken care of and testing results will be much more accurate than what my setup can produce ;).

One thing I find quite hilarious is that in my case the contact after lapping although became broader overall and as seen by the raw pic, the actual sensor products analysis pinned it to reduced area of 0.38 sq.inch out of total 2.78sq.inch. This resulted in my contact only being around 14% lol:D

I think 'close to contact' that you referred to after lapping is that good contact is already there but needs further pressure in order to utilise all that contact i.e. increased contact profile. I am hoping washer will do the job:cool:

I have seen some compounds flatline at 30 psi @ their average particle size or optimum BLT a comparison paste might hit the same point @ 40 psi which is ok in a test series as long as you quantify it with something like "screws were torqued to x number of inch oz. or surfaces were machined lapped to within .0002" Now you pull both thermal performance curves and you can say now that under these conditions I have these results which are qualified because they were quantified and may be or maybe not line up on the idealized curve but they are at least qualified as data.

An extreme comparison might be a liquid metal that probably hits it's BLT @ 10 psi barely enough to hold the sink on now compare at the same mounting pressure compounds that do not hit their stride until 40-50 psi as an extreme you will see 10C + advantage for the Liquid Metal (LM) not to say the LM is not good just the comparison result is greatly exaggerated and the result is not quantified so is not a qualified result. LM pads can give a great result on a lapped sink but get some irregular contours and if you notice LM pads are very thin and do not bridge gaps well and will test poorly against comparison compounds under those conditions. Details are a requirement for serious testing, absence of detail end in a murky understanding of the final result when your test tolerance is several degrees and your comparison measurement is under the range of error.

That is why I stated in lapped testing that MX-4 being a thinner compound may well have adjusted for 53 PSI and this amount of pressure may not have been sufficient for IC Diamond to perform at optimum level since it is thicker compound and may well require even greater pressure which was the case in unlapped setup.

If there is to be contact and pressure test for every user who has so far participated in this thread, it would result in immense variation among users as each individual end user tested their equipment in different environmental conditions coupled with different heatsinks, cpus and the rest of system.
So from serious testing perspective, wouldn't it be correct to assume that all the results from different end users so far gathered can only be noted as a general rough indication of how different thermal compounds performed.

Heat flows on a differential so a condition can arise where if the CPU is 30 C hotter than the MB it will pump heat/Watts to the MB or in watercooling or TEC's the temp can be lower than the MB and draw heat in the other direction. It's common practice to set up controlled thermal environments for tests by isolating components with water blocks on opposite sides to normalize heat flows or to test in wind tunnels with controlled airflow and temperatures. Kind of concentric circles of Dante's hell in a fractual or chaotic sense. I have seen engineers chase their tails with minutia for years, you always have to have the bigger picture in mind but aware of the detail significance. Only lightly touching the surface here more variables than you can shake a stick at :)

All water cooling users, please take a note;)

Modeling and testing air and heat flows is non trivial and back in the day a few years ago OEM's quoted to me their expense of about 3-$400k to do you basic box cooling to harmonize airflow,noise and thermals and double that for a high end workstation.

Yeah I remember using CFD (Computational Fluid Dynamics) software back in my degree days in order to simulate and analyse airflow around an airfoil and this included analysing temp differences across different parts of the airfoil body. We also had to study about boundary layers forming on the surfaces of aerodynamic body and how we could manipulate the properties of boundary layer in order to prevent flow separation and thus preventing reduction in fan blade performance and stall.
The funny thing is we had to carryout CFD calculations using old pentium 4 computers and took ages to solve one problem lol:p and this is before Core 2 series made an appearence.

My testing aside what really counts is what the boots on the ground see on their desktop screen and fortunately there are other ways to skin a cat for accuracy, statistics have been around for hundreds of years vetted by the world greatest mathematicians, good mount bad mount, high and low airflow, varying power etc all the countless known and unknown variables get averaged in, even the biases

Yeah I was taught to take several measurements and then average them out when doing scientific or mathematical investigations during my formal education years. I also made use of basic statistical analysis especially using standard deviation and mean deviation in order to determine the spread out pattern of individual result values from average values. So I think averaging results is still pretty important as it provides us with some normalised results which we can use to gain a basic rough idea. This is also complemented by experimental errors or error analysis upon which I have shed some light and which I used in general fan speeds analysis in post 291 :cool:


All in all nice bit of info and I would say that this thread is really an eye opener in the world of computer cooling as it contains lots of user end testing and information.

Btw I received the pressure and contact papers + IC Diamond tube today. Many thanks for that Andrew.

Now all I need is a washer :cool:
 
Hi, received my tubes of Diamond and Perihelion today, just replaced the original Titan paste that came with the cooler (Fenrir). So far no temperature change at idle (10C above ambient), will get back with some load readings tonight.
 
Mananged to buy the following steel washers today :)

Although not sure what plating has been used on the washers.

washers.png


Here is IFX-14 mounting system again


Height of the base = 15mm

q6600tim6.png


ifx14mountingsystem.png

Thermalright IFX-14 Mounting System


applicationofifx14mount.png

Application of Mounting System


Now I am thinking which one to use?

The larger washer has less thickness so I am thinking it may not result in as much mounting pressure as the smaller one with more thickness.

The smaller one may result in greater bending stress in the mounting plate as washer will be placed underneath it, although if the mounting plate can be fully tightened with smaller washer then pressure will be greater but there may be the factor of motherboard flex.

Does anyone know what is maximum mounting pressure allowable on Intel 775 socket?

http://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe...newton-per-square-meter-[N/m^2]-to-psi-[psi]/

70 psi = 482633.010522482 pascal or n/m^2 :eek:

Didn't know that these PSI values are equivalent to such large pascal or n/m^2 values which are actually used in UK.

Hmm I guess there is no harm in trying both to findout how the contact and pressure pattern turns out. What do you make of it IC Diamond or anyone else ?
 
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What's this paste like compared to shin etsu? wondering if I should order some IC Diamond 24-Carat or not...
 
Just applied the Perihelion so see how it compares to ICD...
so thick this one is... I hope it's not a 'lemon' and dried out...

Sorry it took so long though. Give me about a week and I will have a nice comparison for you between Perihelion, ICD and AS5 :)
 
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