Poll: Official 2023 Canadian Grand Prix Thread - Circuit Gilles-Villeneuve, Montreal - Round 9

[adam cool dude]

You don't rate Leclerc? I think he is pretty good and has the potential to be champion. He does seem a bit mistake prone though i admit. Sainz i don't think has the raw pace when it matters so would agree there.

He is pretty average maybe slightly above I would say. David Coulthard/Barichello level. There is a lot of romanticism because of his background rather than of his ability. Max made him his pup last season.

 

[jaybee]

I agree Redbull are totally sandbagging with Max. For those saying that Merc did it. No. Not as much I don't think for two reasons:

1: Lewis actually had a team mate that often pushed him in Nico and even Bottas some years. Then obviously with the upcoming pace of Redbull catching them in the later part of their reign.
2: Redbull have more to lose if they are seen winning by a minute plus as it stands at the moment just due to the timing of the financial breach and the controversy around the team. I mean they've made a great car clearly, but you get the feeling they want to make this one feel a bit closer than it is for max's next paper championship with an asterisk.

 

[Mr Jack]

He is pretty average maybe slightly above I would say. David Coulthard/Barichello level. There is a lot of romanticism because of his background rather than of his ability.

Leclerc won F3 and F2 back to back. He came into F1 and destroyed his teammate to such a degree that Ferrari moved him straight up to F1. In the second race of his second season, he took pole and fastest lap, landing his first podium and demonstrating how clearly better than his four-time world champion teammate he was. Over the next two years he showed time and again how much better than Vettel he was. His reputation is far from undeserved.

Yes, questions remain about how often he makes errors, and although I personally put that down to how much more he is being asked to achieve with less I accept he's yet to prove that. But on pace and talent? Leclerc has proved himself head and shoulders above the rest.

Max made him his pup last season.

In a far inferior car, he took nine poles to Max's seven.

 

[adam cool dude]

Leclerc won F3 and F2 back to back. He came into F1 and destroyed his teammate to such a degree that Ferrari moved him straight up to F1. In the second race of his second season, he took pole and fastest lap, landing his first podium and demonstrating how clearly better than his four-time world champion teammate he was. Over the next two years he showed time and again how much better than Vettel he was. His reputation is far from undeserved.

Yes, questions remain about how often he makes errors, and although I personally put that down to how much more he is being asked to achieve with less I accept he's yet to prove that. But on pace and talent? Leclerc has proved himself head and shoulders above the rest.



In a far inferior car, he took nine poles to Max's seven.

Jolyon Palmer won GP2 who was just terrible. I fail to see how that reflects positively on Leclerc. His time against Vettel was when Vettel's heart was clearly not in it. It most certainly wasn't the same Vettel that won for Torro Rosso at Monza. You could compare it almost to Rosberg to semi retired Schumacher would almost certainly smash Rosberg in his uninjured prime.

Very rarely do you see something special in a driver. Like Alonso's first season in a Minardi, Hamilton announcing himself to the world in 07, Schumacher ripping it up at Spa in a Jordan or even Vettel at Monza.

I just don't see this with Leclerc. Just a lot of "heritage" from his family name which really doesn't mean anything. Ironically the same for Sainz JR who isn't even fit to lace his dad's boots in terms of driving.

There were parts in the early part of last season when the Ferarri's had the pace on Red Bulls but Max simply out drove him with ease.

 

[Mr Jack]

Jolyon Palmer won GP2 who was just terrible. I fail to see how that reflects positively on Leclerc.

Jolyon Palmer won GP2 in his sixth season of racing Formula 2 cars. Leclerc won it in his first season, having won GP3 the year before. That speaks to talent.

His time against Vettel was when Vettel's heart was clearly not in it. It most certainly wasn't the same Vettel that won for Torro Rosso at Monza.

That's not true. Vettel's morale was destroyed in the second season he was against Leclerc because Leclerc rocked up to a Ferrari team focused entirely on Vettel and thrashed him so badly that Ferrari were forced to drop their first driver policy favouring Vettel.

I just don't see this with Leclerc. Just a lot of "heritage" from his family name which really doesn't mean anything.

Leclerc has a family name? I had to look that up. I'm not sure a Formula 3 record so forgettable he doesn't merit a Wikipedia page has been making the "heritage" waves you think it does.

There were parts in the early part when the Ferarri's had the pace on Red Bulls but Max simply out drove him.

Max beat him because his car was much better, and Ferrari's strategy team had their clown shoes on. I don't want to knock Max here, he was brilliant in '22 and has been brilliant this year, but Leclerc performed staggeringly well against him in '22 given the machinery he was given.

 

[Slam62]

The fact that the three world champions were on the podium two of which are well over thirty says worrying things about the rest of them and tbh the feeder series don't look too promising at the moment.
The biggest problems are Perez being a has been and Russell not realising how high he has to raise his game.
Obviously there's Lando, Oscar, but we can't tell yet because McLaren are rubbish.

Oh yeah forgot about Stroll and Vandorne

 

[imtoooldforthis]

Leclerc GP2 season was the most impressive and dominant GP2 season in a very long time. In terms of pure pace he is one of the best drivers but he’s nowhere near as complete as Verstappen.

F1 drivers are generally massively overhyped though, mainly because the talent pool for motorsport is hilariously small and more or less exclusively made up of rich kids and nepo babies. It’s why there is so much variation in performance between drivers, the talent pool is so thin and uncompetitive relative to proper sports like football (that have no financial barriers to entry) that you end up with a field of drives with wildly varying talent levels and it’s the reason bums like Devries can still be getting drives in their late 20s.

We should have an entire grid of verstappen level drivers but because only rich kids can compete we end up with extremely average drivers competing in the pinnacle of motorsport.

 

[adam cool dude]

Jolyon Palmer won GP2 in his sixth season of racing Formula 2 cars. Leclerc won it in his first season, having won GP3 the year before. That speaks to talent.



That's not true. Vettel's morale was destroyed in the second season he was against Leclerc because Leclerc rocked up to a Ferrari team focused entirely on Vettel and thrashed him so badly that Ferrari were forced to drop their first driver policy favouring Vettel.



Leclerc has a family name? I had to look that up. I'm not sure a Formula 3 record so forgettable he doesn't merit a Wikipedia page has been making the "heritage" waves you think it does.



Max beat him because his car was much better, and Ferrari's strategy team had their clown shoes on. I don't want to knock Max here, he was brilliant in '22 and has been brilliant this year, but Leclerc performed staggeringly well against him in '22 given the machinery he was given.

Jolyon winning in his sixth season could mean anything. Car is everything in the 21st century "shock horror". Jenson Button matched Lewis Hamilton at McLaren many times yet didn't win his first race after ages until he got in a dominant car so winning later is irrelevant.

Leclerc will never win a championship on pure merit he just doesn't have the minerals that the top top drivers have (Verstappen, Alonso, Hammy). Unless he gets a totally dominant car (a bit like Vettel who I never classed in the elite either although I love him as a person) which Ferrari haven't managed to do for 20 years now.

 

[Mr Jack]

Jolyon winning in his sixth season could mean anything.

In reality, it meant he wasn't up to impressing in F1.

Leclerc will never win a championship on pure merit he just doesn't have the minerals that the top top drivers have (Verstappen, Alonso, Hammy).

I hope we will see him in a car that makes it possible to determine the truth or otherwise of this statement.

 

[adam cool dude]

In reality, it meant he wasn't up to impressing in F1.



I hope we will see him in a car that makes it possible to determine the truth or otherwise of this statement.

Like pretty much all of your statements. All based on opinion. The counter argument to your statement was both Button and Rosberg having excellent careers whilst taking a long time to get there. Whether you win first time or 100th time Jolyon Palmer won GP2. The same as Leclerc.


My opinion is I haven't seen anything extraordinary with him as a driver compared with the likes of Hamilton, Alonso and as much as it pains me to say Verstappen.

Every time I have seen Leclerc in a car with a bit of pace he always manages to fluff it up. If you want to be quick at time trials maybe he should have gone into Rally instead. Race pace is what really matters in the end.

 

[Mr Jack]

Like pretty much all of your statements. All based on opinion.

Hmm. Of course this is a matter of opinion but one of us has put forward arguments based on the past record of drivers whilst one of us has done nothing but offer subjective views. I will leave readers to decide who is who.

 

[adam cool dude]

Hmm. Of course this is a matter of opinion but one of us has put forward arguments based on the past record of drivers whilst one of us has done nothing but other subjective views. I will leave readers to decide who is who.

I did you just choose to ignore them because of bias.

You based your entire metric of him by beating Vettel who he himself struggled to beat a bang average Mark Webber and got schooled by Danny Ric. Being 4 time world champion is irrelevant just like being GP2 champion. I could list plenty of drivers better than Vettel who have far less championships.

I have no bias towards any of them anyway. Give me prime Mansell or prime Schumacher over all of them.

 

[cuke2u]

Jolyon winning in his sixth season could mean anything. Car is everything in the 21st century "shock horror". Jenson Button matched Lewis Hamilton at McLaren many times yet didn't win his first race after ages until he got in a dominant car so winning later is irrelevant.

Leclerc will never win a championship on pure merit he just doesn't have the minerals that the top top drivers have (Verstappen, Alonso, Hammy). Unless he gets a totally dominant car (a bit like Vettel who I never classed in the elite either although I love him as a person) which Ferrari haven't managed to do for 20 years now.

I would not call the 2006 Honda in anyway a dominant car that JB drove to his first victory at the Hungaroring because it was fragile. It was purely down to Jenson's skill in the wet. And if you think it is easy to win one race, one championship let alone four then you have absolutely no idea how hard it is for any driver to achieve that level of success. Irrespective of what followed. That is what places Sebastian amongst being one of the elite drivers. Dominant f1 cars are not necessarily the easiest ones to drive either, but a drivers skill can make it look so. Just as Max is doing currently.
It is your opinion that is flawed, along with your perception of history and F1..

 

[adam cool dude]

I would not call the 2006 Honda in anyway a dominant car that JB drove to his first victory at the Hungaroring because it was fragile. It was purely down to Jenson's skill in the wet.

The dominant car was more in relation to his championship winning year as his first victory was more due to the weather than anything else. Pretty much any driver would have won the championship in the Brawn. Not that Jenson is bad. He is very underated imo. Especially when you look at Canada 2011 and his years against Lewis.

The point I was trying to make which brushed totally over your head is that you cannot judge how good a driver is by how quickly they go through to the top. As car is so critical in this case. Jenson and Rosberg had to wait a long time to get to the top but both were very good drivers that they could match Lewis. Maybe not on raw pace but Jenson for example was a far more intelligent driver.

Other posters are trying to justify why Leclerc is justified to be a top driver because he has gotten very lucky being within quick teams very early in his career and comparing him to Vettel who got 4 championships in a very dominant car. Yet who has shown to struggle against Webber and Danny Ric.

If you had a Alonso, Max or Hamilton in the prancing horse you would see things a lot differently than how they are now.

Leclerc has 19 poles and 5 wins from that. Make of that what you will.

Just to put it into perspective Damon Hill got 22 wins from 20 Pole positions in a similar amount of races. Even Botas has 10 wins from 20 poles.

 

[cuke2u]

The dominant car was more in relation to his championship winning year as his first victory was more due to the weather than anything else. Pretty much any driver would have won the championship in the Brawn. Not that Jenson is bad. He is very underated imo. Especially when you look at Canada 2011 and his years against Lewis.

The point I was trying to make which brushed totally over your head is that you cannot judge how good a driver is by how quickly they go through to the top. As car is so critical in this case. Jenson and Rosberg had to wait a long time to get to the top but both were very good drivers that they could match Lewis. Maybe not on raw pace but Jenson for example was a far more intelligent driver.

Other posters are trying to justify why Leclerc is justified to be a top driver because he has gotten very lucky being within quick teams very early in his career and comparing him to Vettel who got 4 championships in a very dominant car. Yet who has shown to struggle against Webber and Danny Ric.

If you had a Alonso, Max or Hamilton in the prancing horse you would see things a lot differently than how they are now.

Leclerc has 19 poles and 5 wins from that. Make of that what you will.

Just to put it into perspective Damon Hill got 22 wins from 20 Pole positions in a similar amount of races. Even Botas has 10 wins from 20 poles.

Charles is a driver of immense skill, the problem is he is in a second rate car and I believe he often overdrives it because his skill is greater than the car can give. Whether this is his archilles heel or not remains to be seen but there must be some frustration under his helmet. I for one am certainly holding back judgment.
As for Charles being in quick teams, oh dear, was the Sauber a quick car? There is talent within Charles but the cars he's been in, and the one currently are not letting him exploit this talent at all.

When Sebastian was at Ferrari in the later years of that partnership they treated him with such disgusting behaviour and totally undermined him and favoured Charles. But then Ferrari have historical form when it comes to treating their drivers.

Definitely there was something else going on behind the scenes or in Sebs head then. However even then throughout his career at Ferrari there were still flashes of brilliance. I also think you are incorrect when it comes to assessing Sebs ability just because some another driver such as Danny outscored him. Look where Danny is now, look at how second rate he looked in the McLaren and miserably failed against Lando.

Oh and put Alonso in a Ferrari? You seem to forget he was and he also failed, an inaccurate view of history. Says something though when a team such as Ferrari can have drivers of such brilliance yet they totally underperform in the car. If any team is toxic it is Ferrari not RB.

Being in a faster car does not guarantee you a race win or WC, for that you need to be special.

 

[Mr Jack]

When Sebastian was at Ferrari in the later years of that partnership they treated him with such disgusting behaviour and totally undermined him and favoured Charles. But then Ferrari have historical form when it comes to treating their drivers.

How did Ferrari treat Vettel badly? Ferrari were paying him a massive wodge of cash to deliver the goods (somewhere around $45m/year in '19 and '20) and he failed to stand-up against a driver in his second year. At the start of 2019, they were giving Vettel priority over Charles, and cost him a win in the process, but Charles was so consistently better than Seb that they were forced to drop that favourable treatment. So, inevitably, they decided that it wasn't worth paying the big bucks to a driver who couldn't even match a youngster. Vettel let his head drop completely after that, and was simply bad in 2020. It was he who failed.

 

[413x]

I'm surprised by the negativity of this race to be honest. I didn't think it was that bad!

For me it was the drs trains. It's really a huge issue in f1. I have no issue with max running off, as long as it doesn't hog screen time.

Maybe I just had highlights for so long a full race is always going to seem more boring.
Maybe it's because the team I support is endlessly mid field with no chance of a WCC. Maybe it's many reasons

I wish I could stop watching. But I keep watching! Usually just stick it on Sunday night to while I do other stuff.


But I watch it out of habit. If I wasn't already "hooked" I certainly wouldn't find it interesting as a new fan. Yet apparently it's more popular than ever!

 

[cuke2u]

How did Ferrari treat Vettel badly? Ferrari were paying him a massive wodge of cash to deliver the goods (somewhere around $45m/year in '19 and '20) and he failed to stand-up against a driver in his second year. At the start of 2019, they were giving Vettel priority over Charles, and cost him a win in the process, but Charles was so consistently better than Seb that they were forced to drop that favourable treatment. So, inevitably, they decided that it wasn't worth paying the big bucks to a driver who couldn't even match a youngster. Vettel let his head drop completely after that, and was simply bad in 2020. It was he who failed.

As far as the money was concerned that was a contract agreed by both parties to bring Sebastian to the team, a four times world champion so nothing to do with it. I think you need to look back at the history of Ferrari drivers, then you'll find they made decisions based upon a whim and interference from the Ferrari family.
When golden boy arrived Ferrari's attitude to Vettel took a marked change, they put their backing behind Charles and hung Sebastian out to dry..

 

[Mr Jack]

Amazing:

 

[Max E]

An easy race, no real effort, boring, could have been much further in front. Good result for the team with 100 wins now.