Poll: Official 2024 United States Grand Prix Race Thread - Circuit of the Americas - Race 19/24

[holdin09]

My 2 pence on the Max and Lando overtake, I don't like how max drives and can be dangerous which because it has went unpunished he thinks he can do what he wants. This time though I don't think he did anything wrong apart from not keeping his car on the track. An overtake shouldn't be easy and the defending car has every right to release the brakes and try to go back up the inside. If it was Max doing the overtake and came up the inside and was 'behind' in the braking zone everyone would say its a great overtake.

Mclaren should have told Lando to give the place back regardless as he completed the overtake off the track and should have seen a penalty was coming. This isn't the first time they haven't made the correct decision in similar situations such as not telling Lando to pit for wets in Russia. Mercedes and Red Bull more often than not get these decisions right.

 

[Jono8]

If it was Max doing the overtake and came up the inside and was 'behind' in the braking zone everyone would say its a great overtake.

I mean, this is pretty much what happened. Max was behind as they entered the braking zone as Norris was a full car length ahead at the end of the straight. Max then divebombs/brakes late up the inside and doesn't make the corner.

Norris should have never got a penalty. He was ahead at the end of the straight, Max tried to get back ahead, but went of the track and forced Norris wide. Norris gained no advantage really, from getting forced off the track.

 

[Terminal_Boy]

I mean, this is pretty much what happened. Max was behind as they entered the braking zone as Norris was a full car length ahead at the end of the straight. Max then divebombs/brakes late up the inside and doesn't make the corner.

Norris should have never got a penalty. He was ahead at the end of the straight, Max tried to get back ahead, but went of the track and forced Norris wide. Norris gained no advantage really, from getting forced off the track.

In motocross, this was called a “block pass” and the passer (on the inside of the corner) often made contact with the passée (on the outside of the corner).

Verstappen’s standard tactic as described above by Jono8 gives the other driver two options:

1. Hold their line and get hit by the other car.

2. Go off the track to avoid being hit and possibly risk a penalty.

 

[Kenai]

Verstappen’s standard tactic as described above by Jono8 gives the other driver two options:

1. Hold their line and get hit by the other car.

2. Go off the track to avoid being hit and possibly risk a penalty.

3. Go off the track to avoid being hit, rejoin behind, defending driver gets penalty for gaining lasting advantage by going off track (and/or pass them again later)

 

[Mesai]

Norris was a full car length ahead at the end of the straight.

He wasn't. By the end of the straight he had his front wheels ahead.

You're also arguing nothing. The ruling is about the apex, where Norris was behind.

If it was Max doing the overtake and came up the inside and was 'behind' in the braking zone everyone would say its a great overtake.

It's not the braking zone, it's the apex. Oscar and George both got punished for trying an overtake on the inside and then pushing the other car off the track. Very different scenario to Max vs Norris.

 

[imtoooldforthis]

Pretty sure Max did the classic thing where you brake as you normally would (where your natural limit is), then see if the car you are battling is still ahead of you in the braking zone and it is then ease off the brake pedal slightly to make that time back up whilst the other car is in its braking phase. This way you can brake earlier but still have control over whether you are ahead at the apex, only downside is it nearly always results in you taking more speed into the corner than is ideal, hence why Vestappen tracked out.

 

[Jono8]

He wasn't. By the end of the straight he had his front wheels ahead.

You're also arguing nothing. The ruling is about the apex, where Norris was behind.

No, because who was deemed ahead/overtaking/defending changes everything. Norris was ahead at the braking zone:

For me, there is a pretty big argument as to who was actually the attacker and defender.

This isn't just me either. Martin Brundle said the same:

Martin Brundle raises fresh questions over Max Verstappen in FIA penalty verdict

Sky F1 commentator Martin Brundle has raised new questions over Max Verstappen after Lando Norris was hit with a penalty by the FIA in Texas.

www.planetf1.com

“And here’s another question: given Norris had passed Verstappen down the outside before Turn 12, when Verstappen sailed back up the inside, who was actually doing the overtaking at the corner apex, Verstappen or Norris?”

 

[CaptainRAVE]

Who is actually deemed ahead? How does one deem that in a braking zone? The fairest shout would have been no penalty either way and to allow the move to stick in this case.

 

[MassiveJim]

guys, for the love of god can we give it a rest now, its painfully clear that no one is convincing anyone to change their minds.
this thread is just 2 pages of utter drivel now.

 

[Jono8]

Who is actually deemed ahead? How does one deem that in a braking zone? The fairest shout would have been no penalty either way and to allow the move to stick in this case.

I agree here. It was a racing incident. Norris slightly ahead at the braking zone. Max does his Max special move, both end up going off the track, Norris stays ahead.

The stewards 100% should have let it be.

 

[Mesai]

No, because who was deemed ahead/overtaking/defending changes everything. Norris was ahead at the braking zone:

For me, there is a pretty big argument as to who was actually the attacker and defender.

This isn't just me either. Martin Brundle said the same:

Martin Brundle raises fresh questions over Max Verstappen in FIA penalty verdict

Sky F1 commentator Martin Brundle has raised new questions over Max Verstappen after Lando Norris was hit with a penalty by the FIA in Texas.

www.planetf1.com

“And here’s another question: given Norris had passed Verstappen down the outside before Turn 12, when Verstappen sailed back up the inside, who was actually doing the overtaking at the corner apex, Verstappen or Norris?”

He has "a significant portion of his car" ahead near the end of the straight, but that doesn't deny the defender the ability to defend.

Max defended, whether you like the way he did it or not, which allowed him to be ahead at the apex, which gives him advantage (as far as the rules go).

 

[Jono8]

He has "a significant portion of his car" ahead near the end of the straight, but that doesn't deny the defender the ability to defend.

Max defended, whether you like the way he did it or not, which allowed him to be ahead at the apex, which gives him advantage (as far as the rules go).

I disagree, and question who was actually the defender or attacker, just like Martin Brundle.

ultimately, no penalty should have been given to either driver.

 

[Jono8]

guys, for the love of god can we give it a rest now, its painfully clear that no one is convincing anyone to change their minds.
this thread is just 2 pages of utter drivel now.

No one is forcing you to join in on this topic. Is there something else about the grand prix you wish to discuss?

 

[Kenai]

I think the 'who was the attacker/defender' argument would just open a whole new world of controversy if you started to deem that as soon as the overtaking car is marginally in front, they've completed an overtake and the defending car is now actually the attacking car.

Now you have carte blanche to brake late on the outside, claim you're ahead so the other car is defacto the attacker into the apex now and is then hamstrung by the guidelines of overtaking on the inside - everyone will just start to 'dive bomb' the outside line knowing the car on the inside has absolutely no real ability to defend (or 'attack back') such a move because they'd have to brake so late they'd have no chance to make the corner and they'd get a penalty.

I think that sort of precedent would eventually lead to just as much controversy as the current scenario once a driver (or drivers) started to exploit that instead - or just terminally boring overtaking whereby overtaking around the outside becomes almost as mundane as a DRS pass because the cars on the inside are too afraid to even try and defend.

guys, for the love of god can we give it a rest now, its painfully clear that no one is convincing anyone to change their minds.
this thread is just 2 pages of utter drivel now.

You don't have to read it if it's annoying you, if other people want to discuss the topic I don't see an issue, it's not like there's really anything else of interest to be discussed from this GP that's being suffocated by this discussion happening

No one is forcing you to join in on this topic. Is there something else about the grand prix you wish to discuss?

Well, there's something we agree on at least

 

[Mad_Jay]

What we need is someone like K-Mag who has no ***** given and just repeats what Max does to defend positions.

Then in the media pen say "That's how championships are won, so I thought I'd try it too"

Would see how ridiculous it all is then

 

[MassiveJim]

No one is forcing you to join in on this topic. Is there something else about the grand prix you wish to discuss?

I would love to give you a response but you won't agree with me and then we'll end up with another page of utter rubbish

 

[MassiveJim]

What we need is someone like K-Mag who has no ***** given and just repeats what Max does to defend positions.

Then in the media pen say "That's how championships are won, so I thought I'd try it too"

Would see how ridiculous it all is then

I have often thought, that if all of the other drivers band together and just hold their line against Max, he would surely have to learn that he won't get away with it.
I guess the issue there is how many £millions of damage would have to be caused for him to get the message,

 

[Scam]

He has "a significant portion of his car" ahead near the end of the straight, but that doesn't deny the defender the ability to defend.

Max defended, whether you like the way he did it or not, which allowed him to be ahead at the apex, which gives him advantage (as far as the rules go).

There's no good angle from what I can find (or have the time to find) but the video I posted earlier to me looks like there's 'almost' thing air between them with Lando in front;

I'd be interested to know if you and other RB fans are defending this because you seriously can't see anything wrong with the way this has panned out, or just because Max came out on top and therefore you don't care? Can you honestly not see anything wrong with how the "rules" have been interpreted and applied in this scenario?

 

[CaptainRAVE]

All it does is kill the racing. Just be seen to out brake yourself on the inside, cut the corner off and you get away with it. It’s more frustrating when Max is seemingly allowed to do it freely and without penalty whereas this isn’t always the case for others.

 

[Jono8]

All it does is kill the racing. Just be seen to out brake yourself on the inside, cut the corner off and you get away with it. It’s more frustrating when Max is seemingly allowed to do it freely and without penalty whereas this isn’t always the case for others.

Personally, I think if you out brake yourself with no clear attempt to make the corner on track, then it's tough if you get overtaken off the track.