Poll: Official 2024 United States Grand Prix Race Thread - Circuit of the Americas - Race 19/24

[imtoooldforthis]

Yeah, I meant the lap 1 move. I think he needs to pick his battles, it's more important to finish ahead of Max if he wants to claw back his chances of winning the WDC and I think everyone expected the Ferraris to be the quickest car through the race.

For me, that lap 1 turn 1 approach by Lando has to be more ruthless and he should be dictating how the corner goes. He started on pole, had a great launch but just half heartedly covers it and left way too much space. It's only going to continue to happen a this rate too. He's going to get more poles from now until the end of the season and it's likely that it's going to either be Max or Leclerc starting next to him so figuring that out has got to be high on his priority list.

It was half hearted but that's probably because the outside line can often be superior here on lap 1 (if you cut inside afterwards or take the momentum around the outside due to the leniency on track limits on T1 Lap 1) so he perhaps wasn't fully committed to defending the inside at all cost which looking back was a mistake but is something I can understand to a certain extent. Starts are definitely his weakness as is his overall self-confidence relative to Max. Confidence can be built up though, I think as a driver he's more than good enough to win a title at some point in his career.

 

[Jono8]

It is definitely a massive reach, that is by no means a completed overtake. I'm no fan of Max's tactics here but lets not get silly about what's going on here, he's very much defending an overtake, not performing an overtake himself.


I haven't but I think your point is hanging on a misunderstanding of the rules.
They can only levy a punishment for gaining a lasting advantage. Max has not gained a lasting advantage by definition because he's lost the position. The only driver who has gained a lasting advantage here is Norris because he chose to complete the overtake.

You can only argue Max has got a lasting advantage if you take into account that Norris' punishment then gives Max the position back, which is what becomes a complete nonsense with needing to penalise them both, to logically find any way to penalise Max.



The (theoretically) easy counter to this behaviour, is to rejoin the track behind him still and then let the stewards punish him for gaining the lasting advantage of keeping his position by driving outside of track limits. Then just cross your fingers you don't get Brazil 21'd.

Should there be a better rule/guideline with which such a behaviour can be punished? Probably but it would be a complete minefield to write without introducing other unintended consequences.

The only one misunderstanding the rules are the stewards.

The rules state:



"2. Guidelines for overtaking on the outside of a corner:

“In order for a car being overtaken to be required to give sufficient room to an overtaking car, the
overtaking car needs to have a significant portion of the car alongside the car being overtaken and
the overtaking manoeuvre must be done in a safe and controlled manner, while enabling the car to
clearly remain within the limits of the track.

When considering what is a ‘significant portion’, for an overtaking on the outside of a corner, among
the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards when exercising their discretion, the
stewards will consider if the overtaking car is ahead of the other car from the apex of the corner.

The car being overtaken must be capable of making the corner while remaining within the limits of
the track.”


Therefore the whole "ahead at the apex" is essentially null and void, as Max was not capable of remaining within the limits of the track.

It literally says "must". The bit about the apex is only described in what they can consider with their discretion. The bit about having to make the corner is a "must"

So Max broke the rules defending, and had Norris stayed behind him, he should have got a penalty or been asked to let Norris past. Yes, technically Norris broke the rules by overtaking outside the track, but Max was outside the track too, having just broken the rules himself!!

The only sensible decision here was to leave things as they were and call it a racing incident OR give both of them a penalty (which would have nullified it all anyway and been pointless to do).

 

[Kenai]

You seem insistent that Norris gained an advantage by leaving the track

because he did

whereas it's plain to see that (1) he didn't leave the track by choice,

not relevant to the rule, whether you or I think it should be

any advantage was nullified by the fact that the opposing car did the same.

not how the rule is written, he got a lasting advantage because he gained a place, regardless of what Max did or didn't do

If Norris didn't complete the overtake then Max would have gained a lasting advantage by remaining ahead. So he would have been penalised and Lando would have got the position, physically or on paper via a penalty given to Max. Since Lando did get the overtake done, there's no need to punish Max and the whole incident should be nullified.

IF IF IF IF

That's the entire point.

People are saying that Max should have received a penalty.

He shouldn't have.

He. Did. Not. Gain. A. Lasting. Advantage. It's very very very simple.

IF IF IF IF it was different, then yes the punishments could/should/would be different, that's the point i've been making.

 

[Kenai]

The only one misunderstanding the rules are the stewards.

The rules state:



"2. Guidelines for overtaking on the outside of a corner:

“In order for a car being overtaken to be required to give sufficient room to an overtaking car, the
overtaking car needs to have a significant portion of the car alongside the car being overtaken and
the overtaking manoeuvre must be done in a safe and controlled manner, while enabling the car to
clearly remain within the limits of the track.

When considering what is a ‘significant portion’, for an overtaking on the outside of a corner, among
the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards when exercising their discretion, the
stewards will consider if the overtaking car is ahead of the other car from the apex of the corner.

The car being overtaken must be capable of making the corner while remaining within the limits of
the track.”


Therefore the whole "ahead at the apex" is essentially null and void, as Max was not capable of remaining within the limits of the track.

It literally says "must". The bit about the apex is only described in what they can consider with their discretion. The bit about having to make the corner is a "must"

So Max broke the rules defending, and had Norris stayed behind him, he should have got a penalty or been asked to let Norris past. Yes, technically Norris broke the rules by overtaking outside the track, but Max was outside the track too, having just broken the rules himself!!

The only sensible decision here was to leave things as they were and call it a racing incident OR give both of them a penalty (which would have nullified it all anyway and been pointless to do).

You're quoting the guidelines, not the rules, that specifically say they are non-binding right at the start.

"had Norris stayed behind him, he should have got a penalty or been asked to let Norris past"

Yes, this is what i've been saying. You could punish Max, if he was the one who actually got the lasting advantage, not Norris.

The rules, 33.3 of the sporting regs in particular, is very clear cut.

Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not leave the track without a justifiable reason.

Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and, for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.

Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage.

At the absolute discretion of the Race Director a driver may be given the opportunity to give back the whole of any advantage he gained by leaving the track.

Norris gained a lasting advantage by leaving the track. Max did not. Simple.

You can't levy a punishment on Max for something he didn't do.

You can levy a punishment on Norris for something he did do.

If Norris was thinking, he'd have rejoined behind Max and left the stewards with the problem to punish Max for gaining the advantage. He didn't and left the situation in a position where only he could be punished.

 

[Jimbeam3678]

I don't think anyone can properly criticise his race craft yesterday tbh, they both drove fantastically and showed themselves to be the elite drivers they are, the battle was fantastic, perfect defense from Max (bar the last bit lol) and a very fair and patient attack from Norris.

Lando is a serious serious talent, it seems to have become fashionable to talk him down this season (whilst talking up his objectively slower team mate). People criminally underestimate him for some bizarre reason. He hadn't won a race prior to this season and yet people are expecting him to have the same level of experience fighting for a win as multiple time WDC.

Also people underestimate how sensational Max is at defending (both within and outside the rules). Ultimately he had to try something like this to get past, it was clear Max was getting a better exit onto the straight via his wider entry into the corner, even when he finally got a bit of wheel spin the DRS was still not enough to let Lando have a proper go. With a stronger DRS he would have got past and people would have hailed the amazing racecraft

Norris isn't an elite driver.. He's very good, but not elite. Max, Lewis, Alonso are elite drivers.

On Lap 1 ?

T1 L1 at COTA is a nightmare in general, very easy for the driver in first to lose a position or two, happens all the time. He could have probably shut the door on Max more aggressively than he did but he would have then had an even narrower entry into the corner which would have given him an even worse exit resulting in the Ferraris presumably still overtaking him. He would have probably held the position ahead of Verstappen though... so yeh he could have done better there.

I was mostly talking about his racecraft during the Verstappen battle though.

Reversing the roles can you imagine Max letting Lando through like yesterday? No chance, he'd of pushed him into the barrier. Like it or not that's generally what elite drivers do.

 

[imtoooldforthis]

Norris isn't an elite driver.. He's very good, but not elite. Max, Lewis, Alonso are elite drivers.

Reversing the roles can you imagine Max letting Lando through like yesterday? No chance, he'd of pushed him into the barrier. Like it or not that's generally what elite drivers do.

He's elite in terms of pace but i agree he's not on the level Max currently is or the level Hamilton or Alonso were at when they were younger.

Id argue its perhaps a little generous calling Alonso elite these days given it's based on assumptions of how good he used to be, he's not exactly set the world on fire at Aston despite dominating Stroll, then again its hard to look like a don when you fight in the midfield every race. You could argue the same for current day Hamilton. Still very very good but can't help but feel neither of them have the raw pace of the likes of Max, Norris, Leclerc... which is understandable given their age.

I think Max is in a class of one but believe Norris and Leclerc are the next best-positioned drivers behind him. I guess both of the old boys will have a chance to prove me wrong in the next couple of seasons, Hamilton against Leclerc and Alonso once he gets a Newey car.

 

[Scam]

Norris gained a lasting advantage by leaving the track.

No he didn't. He overtook Max despite the fact they both left the track. Had they both stayed on the track, Lando would have gotten past too. He didn't gain anything by leaving the track.

And that's also ignoring the fact he only left the track to avoid a collision.

 

[CSMonkeh]

Hang on, sorry if I’ve missed something, but having watched the start, Max barges Lando miles off the track at the start and appeared to go off himself yet Max gained an advantage - let me guess chalked down as race starts and Turn 1 shenangians

Also didn’t Max barge off Sainz after the long straight?
Russell done less and got penalty….

But yeah Lando is too nice to be WDC

 

[AlphariusOmegan]

No he didn't. He overtook Max despite the fact they both left the track. Had they both stayed on the track, Lando would have gotten past too. He didn't gain anything by leaving the track.

And that's also ignoring the fact he only left the track to avoid a collision.

sorry but you really need to go back to school and ask a teacher to explain to you what a lasting advantage and gaining means.

 

[Kenai]

No he didn't.

He literally did

Did he leave the track? Yes, he clearly did.
Did he gain a lasting advantage? Yes, he gained a position.

The rest is irrelevant, the rules make no discretion for 'was forced off', 'would have passed anyway' etc.

 

[Jono8]

No he didn't. He overtook Max despite the fact they both left the track. Had they both stayed on the track, Lando would have gotten past too. He didn't gain anything by leaving the track.

And that's also ignoring the fact he only left the track to avoid a collision.

That's actually a very good point. Considering Norris was ahead (pretty much entirely from the footage we have) by the braking zone (screenshot posted earlier), and they BOTH left the track, it is tenuous as to what "advantage" he gained.

Norris was ahead at the braking zone. Max had the inside line and beat him to the apex but ONLY because he braked too late and didn't make the corner/stay on track. Norris had to go off the track to avoid the collision but ultimately remained ahead (just as he was before the corner/braking zone).

The whole thing is ridiculous to be honest. At worst (for Max), he should have got a penalty for intentionally braking too late to make the corner/force another car off the track. At best (for Max ) it's a racing incident.

There isn't really a situation where Norris should have had a penalty here.

 

[Mesai]

That's actually a very good point. Considering Norris was ahead (pretty much entirely from the footage we have) by the braking zone (screenshot posted earlier), and they BOTH left the track, it is tenuous as to what "advantage" he gained.

Norris was ahead at the braking zone. Max had the inside line and beat him to the apex but ONLY because he braked too late and didn't make the corner/stay on track. Norris had to go off the track to avoid the collision but ultimately remained ahead (just as he was before the corner/braking zone).

The whole thing is ridiculous to be honest. At worst (for Max), he should have got a penalty for intentionally braking too late to make the corner/force another car off the track. At best (for Max ) it's a racing incident.

There isn't really a situation where Norris should have had a penalty here.

Norris was marginally ahead in the initial braking, and was behind by the apex, so he had no right, at any point, over Max. There are plenty camera angles showing as much.

Max would get a warning for track limits, but Norris went off the track and overtook a car when he was not even ahead of said car.

Your emotional opinion doesn't factor in here. Rules were followed. If the track had gravel, I doubt Norris would have kept his foot down, so he knew what he was doing.

 

[Jono8]

Norris was marginally ahead in the initial braking, and was behind by the apex, so he had no right, at any point, over Max. There are plenty camera angles showing as much.

Max would get a warning for track limits, but Norris went off the track and overtook a car when he was not even ahead of said car.

Your emotional opinion doesn't factor in here. Rules were followed. If the track had gravel, I doubt Norris would have kept his foot down, so he knew what he was doing.

It isn't an emotional opinion at all. Max didn't stay on the track, so the whole "apex" argument is null and void.

The fact, is that Norris WAS ahead at the end of the straight, Max broke late on the inside line, beat him to the apex BUT crucially did not make the corner and forced Norris wide.

Norris was ahead at the braking point, Max's attempt at fairly getting back ahead through the corner whilst staying on the track failed.

They both went off the track as a result and Norris went back ahead (as he was at the end of the straight /start of the braking zone).

 

[Mesai]

It isn't an emotional opinion at all. Max didn't stay on the track, so the whole "apex" argument is null and void.

The fact, is that Norris WAS ahead at the end of the straight, Max broke late on the inside line, beat him to the apex BUT crucially did not make the corner and forced Norris wide.

Norris was ahead at the braking point, Max's attempt at fairly getting back ahead through the corner whilst staying on the track failed.

They both went off the track as a result and Norris went back ahead (as he was at the end of the straight /start of the braking zone).

He could be selling Christmas cards at the end of the straight and it wouldn't make a difference. The rules are that he needed to have a significant part of the car ahead on the straight (he didn't), and be ahead at the apex (he wasn't).

Max left the track and gets a warning for doing so. Lando left the track, and overtook while doing so, because he was behind at the apex, so he gets penalised. Defender had advantage so attacker needed to fall back.

There's no rule for what you're talking about, but maybe there needs to be.

 

[Trusty]

It’s just amazing that lando still lacks the experience or racecraft to predict that move.

First season at the front, he needs a bit of leeway, you'd think he will much better next season if McLaren are competitive.

 

[Paxton81]

Great performance by Lawson to finish P9 after starting P19. What a statement drive for his first race back in F1.

 

[Scam]

sorry but you really need to go back to school and ask a teacher to explain to you what a lasting advantage and gaining means.

He literally did

I think you both need to understand what the words "gain" and "advantage" means. As I said, we all know Norris would have completed the overtake had Max not pushed him off track, therefore it's clearly there was no advantage in Norris going off track. Listen to @Jono8 ...

That's actually a very good point. Considering Norris was ahead (pretty much entirely from the footage we have) by the braking zone (screenshot posted earlier), and they BOTH left the track, it is tenuous as to what "advantage" he gained.

And as he so well said, the apex argument is nullified by the fact that Max didn't make the corner.

 

[Mr Jack]

Great performance by Lawson to finish P9 after starting P19. What a statement drive for his first race back in F1.

Yeah, great show from him.

 

[Kenai]

I think you both need to understand what the words "gain" and "advantage" means. As I said, we all know Norris would have completed the overtake had Max not pushed him off track, therefore it's clearly there was no advantage in Norris going off track.

"Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage."

He ended up gaining a track position whilst leaving the track. It's cut and dry, lasting advantage. It's absolute delusion to interpret it otherwise. If he didn't gain any advantage, he'd have been behind Max and the entire conversation would be about whether Max had gained a lasting advantage by leaving the track.

You can dress it up with fluff like 'he would have completed the overtake anyway' as much as you like to make yourself feel better about the delusion but none of it is relevant to the rule, which objectively was clearly broken by Norris.

 

[Jono8]

"Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage."

He ended up gaining a track position whilst leaving the track. It's cut and dry, lasting advantage. It's absolute delusion to interpret it otherwise. If he didn't gain any advantage, he'd have been behind Max and the entire conversation would be about whether Max had gained a lasting advantage by leaving the track.

You can dress it up with fluff like 'he would have completed the overtake anyway' as much as you like to make yourself feel better about the delusion but none of it is relevant to the rule, which objectively was clearly broken by Norris.

But it wasn't clearly broken. What advantage did Norris gain? He was ahead of Max at the end of the straight. Max only lost the place with Norris off track because he braked late, went off the track and drove Norris wide. Had he been sporting and not done that, Norris would have no doubt kept ahead after the corner whilst staying on track.

I fail to see what advantage Norris "gained".