Oil's all gone!

growse said:
I'm torn. A part of me loves the bike, so wants to just spend the money (I'll pull it out of the mortgage) and write it off as experience. The other half of me thinks that a dealer that doesn't recognise imminent engine failure needs to have the **** slapped out of them. But that said, I don't know what my first step would be, legally.

Any advice?
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Well, i suppose it comes down to a number of things.

First, what exactly are they going to do to repair the damage, are they going to give you a brand new motor for your money, or are they going to rebuild your blown motor, reusing what parts they can salvage in the process, & the rebuild being carried out by the same bunch of incompetant chimps who gave you such shockingly poor advice in the first place?.

Second, if you do bite the bullet, how long do you plan on keeping said bike, if it's years, well atleast you'll get your monies worth, if it isn't that long term, then it just doesn't strike me as sensible at all.

As for the legal side of things, sadly i can't help you on that score i'm afraid, tho i still think writing to Watchdog for advice etc might still be worth a punt, just in case your not the only Beemer owner in your area to fall foul of said shower of incompetant chimps.
 
VoG said:
Well, i suppose it comes down to a number of things.

First, what exactly are they going to do to repair the damage, are they going to give you a brand new motor for your money, or are they going to rebuild your blown motor, reusing what parts they can salvage in the process, & the rebuild being carried out by the same bunch of incompetant chimps who gave you such shockingly poor advice in the first place?.

Second, if you do bite the bullet, how long do you plan on keeping said bike, if it's years, well atleast you'll get your monies worth, if it isn't that long term, then it just doesn't strike me as sensible at all.

As for the legal side of things, sadly i can't help you on that score i'm afraid, tho i still think writing to Watchdog for advice etc might still be worth a punt, just in case your not the only Beemer owner in your area to fall foul of said shower of incompetant chimps.
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The price I've been quoted is for a new engine. Looking at the parts listing (a while ago, memory is hazy), I think it comes as complete unit including gearbox, clutch etc. Will double-check.

As for how long I'm going to keep the bike, I've no idea. I love it to bits, but have two principal criticisms - 1) it could do with a bit more than 84bhp and 2) it's not the most comfortable on longer journeys. To be honest, before this all happened I was browsing to see how much something like an R1200R would set me back as it's got more poke and is more comfortable, yet very insurable at the same time.
 
Have they advised you to keep on riding it despite the rattling sound?
If no, with a warning that the engine might fail if you do attached, then it's your bad.
If yes, I think you have some grounds to legally pursue this.
The next step would obviously be to contact a lawyer for professional negligence, put your case to them and see what he/she says.
Of course, there can be no doubt as to what they've actually said & done. It has to be 100% watertight case.
 
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popovich said:
Yep, he failed there, no doubt.
That doesn't excuse the service shop failure the least bit though.
Now imagine the same scenario with him instead of you, and his F800 instead of your PC.
Bikes' engines shouldn't rattle, not even a little bit. Period.
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Fair enough - the dealer did screw up but I'm assuming that:
a) the rattle didn't come about after going to the dealer (by the sound of it you're not very technical/observant - no offense).
b) he's telling the 100% truth on this and it was a week later not a year later.... (i don't know you and i don't like to make assumptions so not saying you have/are)
c) dealer - cars or bikes I've known people who went into the trade and i know what people they have working on them. Once in a while you get a good 'un with an ounce of common sense. :)

Now what you could do is:

a) put your gearbox into the engine negating the parts there (only gaskets will be required) if the engine and gearbox are 1 (looking at photos it looks like they are as normal).
b) take the old engine out yourself (easy enough if you think logically and have a mate- i've done on my own on a CBR600 in a garage). Just remember to put a quilt underneath the bike engine so when it drops you don't smash it on the floor and knacker the gearbox.
c) listen to popovich on the legal side of things and i'd advise pursuing that way unless they turn round and say 'no you have no legal case' etc in which case the money you'd spend fixing the bike you'd spend on a £100/hr laywer who might lose annyway (somebodt say 100% watertight? ;) ).

as a result of this i'd get yourself on a basic bike servicing course explaining what to look for on a bike which can go wong BEFORE it happens. ;)

that's a long post - Wow!
 
helpimcrap said:
Fair enough - the dealer did screw up but I'm assuming that:
a) the rattle didn't come about after going to the dealer (by the sound of it you're not very technical/observant - no offense).
b) he's telling the 100% truth on this and it was a week later not a year later.... (i don't know you and i don't like to make assumptions so not saying you have/are)
c) dealer - cars or bikes I've known people who went into the trade and i know what people they have working on them. Once in a while you get a good 'un with an ounce of common sense. :)
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a) None taken. Let me quote OP on this one:
growse said:
**Update**

So after taking it to the dealer at the end of last week and letting them do it's 18k service, it broke down on the A1 this morning. The dealer's opinion last week was "We don't know what it is, but if it were something serious you'd hear it rattle at all revs. Keep an eye on it and let us know".

This morning, started up, rattle was a bit quieter, so I'm thinking "It's gone away. Good." Then as the bike warms up, the rattle becomes a clatter and gets both louder and more prominent higher up the rev range. As I hit 10 miles in, it's now everywhere under power, and I'm losing power. I pull up on the hard shoulder and start to hear it clattering at idle. A quick listen indicates it might be bottom end. I give it a gentle rev, and see the oil light blink at me before it just dies. I don't even try and start it again. Dipstick says oil on the Max line, so my initial thought is oil pump failure.

It's back at the dealer now. Not exactly happy.
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b) It wasn't my intention to insinuate he was a liar or anything like that, and if I asked the same question 2 times it was only because I always do that, I like to be absolutely sure. I understood and believed him the first time and I just wanted to confirm one more time. If he decides to legally pursue this, he will be asked the same questions 5 times, not 2. If it came across as insulting, I apologize to the OP. (even though he wasn't the one complaining and he has no reason to)

c) I never said otherwise.
 
I'm going to have a chat with Motorworks to find out a) how much a s/h engine is and what it comes with and b) they're estimate as to the value of the bike pre- and post- engine swap. In my experience they've usually been really helpful, so should be a good techincal second-opinion. I've also got a couple of mates who are experienced in the mechanical dept to help me do the swap if I want to go down that route.

To re-cap, order of events:

  1. I ride bike
  2. I notice coming home up the A1 that there's a rattle that's appeared. It appears at about 4k rpm in the rev range under power. In lower gears, the rattle is more like at 3,750rpm, but still only under power.
  3. I get home, and check the oil.
  4. I see the oil is barely registering on the dipstick, just below the min level.
  5. I change the oil+filter, thinking the rattle was caused by lack of lubrication.
  6. Oil comes out black, smooth, and free from metallic parts.
  7. I phone the dealer to book in 18k service, explaining that there's a rattle and that I've done the oil/filter myself.
  8. Dealer says "bring it in tomorrow" - I was expecting availability at some point the next week.
  9. I ride to dealer, rattle is less when cold, but re-appears when warm.
  10. I get to dealer, re-explain all of the above in person
  11. Dealer bills me for service and states that they're not sure what it might be and that I should "keep an eye on it and phone them the next week to let them know if it's gotten better or worse". They didn't ride it, but did spend a bit of time revving it.
  12. I set out on Monday morning. Rattle gets progressively louder and present at all points on rev range. Bike starts to lose power. I pull over on hard shoulder of A1 about 10 miles from start of journey. Get off and listen. Sounds bottom-endy and is now rattling on idle. Give it a slight throttle blip and the bike dies with the oil light flickering right at the very end.
  13. Say hello to the RAC man and take it back to the dealer.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it :p
 
Currently looking at second handers. Can get a silver (yes, I know - just finding out age) one with 8k miles on it for £800, complete without alternator. Alternative is a 2006 with only 2k miles for £1000. Concerns about dodge valve cover gaskets on that second one though.
 
But if you are putting in a s/h engine,then it's very easy to change the rocker cover gasket.It is only 4 bolts and new gasket(the new kits come complete with both gaskets and new bolts),and a bit of silicon.
Silver engine :eek:
 
hillbilly2 said:
But if you are putting in a s/h engine,then it's very easy to change the rocker cover gasket.It is only 4 bolts and new gasket(the new kits come complete with both gaskets and new bolts),and a bit of silicon.
Silver engine :eek:
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Agreed, shouldn't be a difficult change.

No black engines to be had right now :(
 
Update.

Just dropped £950 on a s/h engine from motorworks. Decided to get a new belt at the same time (old one was splitting), so total bill is around £1270 delivered.

Engine itself is a 2006, described as 'very clean' with only 2k miles on it. Both me and motorworks are very aware of piston slap issues on the early engine and they've given me a 6 month warranty on it and will sort it if it causes any issues. I'll be putting 6k miles on it over that time period, so hopefully any niggles will make themselves apparent then.

Motorworks have been brilliant, not a bad word to say about them. Got a free oil filter out of it as well (hurray!).

Now I just need to bribe a mate with a hoist to come round and help me fit it.
 
Only 2k miles on it? Sounds promising. Well, since you decided to go down that route, I guess there's nothing left to say except get back on the road soon and remember the lessons you learned from this. ;)
Cheers
 
hillbilly2 said:
Have they removed the original engine from your bike to determine the fault?
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ChrisGTL said:
So the admit they didn't test it correctly, they should have put the engine under load by riding it not just revving it.

I'm guessing that the different metals expand with heat, this is why it sounded better cold?

Ask for photo's off the failure if the engine is in pieces.
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Engine is still intact on the bike, but with the belt pully cover removed and the sump guard sieve thingie accessed.

I'm past bothering with the dealer. I'll just go to guildford from now on.
 
I'll just leave this here. :)

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New engine works perfectly!

There's a few bits and pieces that I need to sort out:

1) Need to figure out where the three bolts I had left over actually go, and if anything fall off.
2) Headstock bearings still need replacing.
3) The belt pinion on the working engine is an older design to the one that broke. Originanlly BMW shipped the F800s with a rigid belt pinion, but that gives a fairly lumpy ride at slow speeds. They changed it later to a damped version which improves things. Somehow need to get the pinion off the old engine and refit it to the new one.

Other than that, it's great! You can tell it's a lower mileage engine, things feel a touch less rattly and a touch tighter, the gearbox especially. The idle clutch chatter is a fair bit louder though, but that's part of the older engines "character".

I must say that after embarking on this, no job looks too big now. I knew I needed the headstock bearings doing before, and was dreading it slightly. Now I know it's a fairly simple thing :)
 
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