On Intel Raptor Lake, any truth to the rumors that disabling all e-cores hurts single threaded performance of the p-cores??

[Wolverine2349]

From your freaking link, with ecores off the 12700k was slower in every single benchmark bar one.....including games. So wtf are you talking about ???

In WIN11 not WIN10 though. WIN11 is thread director aware and thread director is screwed up with e-cores off as it does not know how to deal with hyper threading and allocates tasks incorrectly between logical and physical cores. If you could disable the thread director in WIN11, it wuld know how to treat it is a normal 8 core 16 thread CPU. But you cannot disable thread director.

WIN10 is not thread director aware, so the thread director is in essence effectively disabled so WIN10, so WIN10 treats it it normally as an 8 core 16 thread CPU and gaming will perform better with e-cores off period with the thread director off which it is in WIN10, but it is not possible to disable it in WIN11.

 

[Wolverine2349]

Windows 11, and your post makes no sense because none of that is observed behaviour. in actual practice. Thread director works perfectly and background tasks offload to e-cores effectively, exactly as intended.

Thats only in WIN11, not WIN10 because it is thread director aware. WIN10 is not. The thread director is not always perfect. We have been in an SMP world for ages so its not always going to work properly even though WIN11 is supposed to be the best it can get and may work mostly.

Though without it, disabling e-cores is perfect in WIN10 and you get the best 8 core CPU with best per core performance in the world.

 

[uscool]

Didn't update not fix that on windows 10 ? Windows 10 22H2

 

[Deleted member 258511]

Thats only in WIN11, not WIN10 because it is thread director aware. WIN10 is not. The thread director is not always perfect. We have been in an SMP world for ages so its not always going to work properly even though WIN11 is supposed to be the best it can get and may work mostly.

Though without it, disabling e-cores is perfect in WIN10 and you get the best 8 core CPU with best per core performance in the world.

Have you noticed anymore heat as a result of turning off the e-cores?

I have had to do this on my 13900k to make Star Citizen playable. Although it’s much better, I’ve noticed my temps going up a little bit.

 

[Wolverine2349]

Have you noticed anymore heat as a result of turning off the e-cores?

I have had to do this on my 13900k to make Star Citizen playable. Although it’s much better, I’ve noticed my temps going up a little bit.

Heck no. Well maybe if you leave everything auto it will try and boost P core clocks too much. But manually setting all clocks being equal way way less heat and can clock P cores higher with less voltage of course.

 

[Deleted member 258511]

Heck no. Well maybe if you leave everything auto it will try and boost P core clocks too much. But manually setting all clocks being equal way way less heat and can clock P cores higher with less voltage of course.

Nope, not stock. I have a feeling it’s just Star Citizen being Star Citizen.

 

[Wolverine2349]

Didn't update not fix that on windows 10 ? Windows 10 22H2

Fix what?

 

[uscool]

Scheduler updated on windows 10 latest update ?

If anything I see people getting slightly better results on windows 11 regardless with e cores on or off why not make the jump ?

It's surprising I thought would see big difference in temps and power usage with e cores off in gaming which isn't the case

 

[Bencher]

Scheduler updated on windows 10 latest update ?

If anything I see people getting slightly better results on windows 11 regardless with e cores on or off why not make the jump ?

It's surprising I thought would see big difference in temps and power usage with e cores off in gaming which isn't the case

Nothing he says is the case. He is literally making stuff up.

 

[Wolverine2349]

Scheduler updated on windows 10 latest update ?

If anything I see people getting slightly better results on windows 11 regardless with e cores on or off why not make the jump ?

It's surprising I thought would see big difference in temps and power usage with e cores off in gaming which isn't the case

Windows 11 with e-cores off hurts performance because the thread director has no clue how to handle logical and physical cores with the thread director and there is no way to disable the thread director. I tested it myself and got inconsistent single threaded scores on 13900K with e-cores off oin CPU-Z with fixed clock rate 5.6GHz. Got 914 single core score and sometimes 860 to 875. With turning even one e-core on always get 914 in WIN11. With all e-cores off in WIN10, always get 914 score.

Falkentine on overclock.net found the same behavior over at overclock.net and stated you need at least one e-core on or single core performance suffers. Thats because of WIN11 being thread director aware and no way too disable it. I was worried about it because I wanted it only as 8 P core chip, but found the behavior is only a WIN11 thing not a WIN10 thing and I use WN10 so no affect.

Core i7-12700K review revealing that E-cores hurt P-cores, but without them, everything is only worse

A review of the Core i7-12700K reveals that the presence of E-cores negatively impacts the performance of P-cores, but without them, the overall performance is even worse.

fox-laptop.com

And once again thread director is active and has no way of knowing how to use logical vs physical cores properly. Now if you disable hyper threading, then I suppose it will not matter on WIN11.

In WIN10, the e-cores can still be used, but the thread director is not active as WIN10 cannot see it. And thread director is needed for optimal scheduling between the different core types. And Windows 11 is needed to use the thread director on Alder Lake and Raptor Lake CPUs.

 

[uscool]

What windows 10 version are you using ? 22h2 or 21H2

Any results to actually show the difference? Windows 10 with e cores off Vs windows 11 with e cores on and off ? Over number of different games with averages and lows ?

Windows 11 with e-cores off hurts performance because the thread director has no clue how to handle logical and physical cores with the thread director and there is no way to disable the thread director. I tested it myself and got inconsistent single threaded scores on 13900K with e-cores off oin CPU-Z with fixed clock rate 5.6GHz. Got 914 single core score and sometimes 860 to 875. With turning even one e-core on always get 914 in WIN11. With all e-cores off in WIN10, always get 914 score.

Falkentine on overclock.net found the same behavior over at overclock.net and stated you need at least one e-core on or single core performance suffers. Thats because of WIN11 being thread director aware and no way too disable it. I was worried about it because I wanted it only as 8 P core chip, but found the behavior is only a WIN11 thing not a WIN10 thing and I use WN10 so no affect.

Core i7-12700K review revealing that E-cores hurt P-cores, but without them, everything is only worse

A review of the Core i7-12700K reveals that the presence of E-cores negatively impacts the performance of P-cores, but without them, the overall performance is even worse.

fox-laptop.com

And once again thread director is active and has no way of knowing how to use logical vs physical cores properly. Now if you disable hyper threading, then I suppose it will not matter on WIN11.

In WIN10, the e-cores can still be used, but the thread director is not active as WIN10 cannot see it. And thread director is needed for optimal scheduling between the different core types. And Windows 11 is needed to use the thread director on Alder Lake and Raptor Lake CPUs.

 

[Wolverine2349]

What windows 10 version are you using ? 22h2 or 21H2

Any results to actually show the difference? Windows 10 with e cores off Vs windows 11 with e cores on and off ? Over number of different games with averages and lows ?

UI use 21H2 LTSC of WIN10.

I tested with CPU-Z CPU benchmark.

I have not done any game benchmarks.

I just want e-cores off. E-cores do nothing nada for games.

 

[MartinPrince]

I have not done any game benchmarks.

I just want e-cores off. E-cores do nothing nada for games.

These two sentences seem to contradict each other. If you've done no benchmarks how can you make such a definitive assessment?

You could at least point to someone else who has tested this, especially when I believe I've seen others who have tested it say it can make a difference in the odd game.

 

[Bencher]

These two sentences seem to contradict each other. If you've done no benchmarks how can you make such a definitive assessment?

You could at least point to someone else who has tested this, especially when I believe I've seen others who have tested it say it can make a difference in the odd game.

I've tested it, he is completely wrong. Some games benefit from ecores off, (like 1 or 2), some games benefit from ecores on (again, just a couple), most games don't care about it. So turning them off is just silly.

 

[mid_gen]

These two sentences seem to contradict each other. If you've done no benchmarks how can you make such a definitive assessment?

You could at least point to someone else who has tested this, especially when I believe I've seen others who have tested it say it can make a difference in the odd game.

New thread title:

I think e-cores do not help game performance and I absolutely do not want any facts to show otherwise and challenge this.

 

[Wolverine2349]

I've tested it, he is completely wrong. Some games benefit from ecores off, (like 1 or 2), some games benefit from ecores on (again, just a couple), most games don't care about it. So turning them off is just silly.

Games do not scale beyond 8 cores and not many even scale to more than 6. 1 or 2 games is almost nothing. Turning them off makes sense if you want an 8 p core chip.

Disabling e cores makes sense for more thermal headroom especially on air cooling with a static manual all core all the time overclock. Only have to stress test and account for rock solid stability of 8 p cores. If intel had an 8 p core only CPU that would be the buy. But they do not. And don't say buy AMD if you want only 8 strong cores. AMDs strong 8 Zen 4 cores are not as good as Intel.

 

[Armageus]

Windows 11 with e-cores off hurts performance because the thread director has no clue how to handle logical and physical cores with the thread director and there is no way to disable the thread director.

Can't see that being correct - they will have coded it to work with all variations of E-Cores and P-Cores from 0 E-Cores, to 0-P Cores and all variations in between.

Thread Director isn't entirely software based either, with 13xxx chips getting an update version of the thread director hardware, so whatever your thoughts on Windows 10 are also likely to be wrong, as thread director will still make decisions at a hardware level

 

[Bencher]

Turning them off makes sense if you want an 8 p core chip.

Turning them off makes absolutely no sense.

Disabling e cores makes sense for more thermal headroom especially on air cooling with a static manual all core all the time overclock.

No it doesn't. Im running 5.8 ghz cyberpunk 2077 with ecores on. Are you saying that if I turn off ecores ill run 5.9 or 6.0ghz with the same voltage?

 

[Wolverine2349]

I've tested it, he is completely wrong. Some games benefit from ecores off, (like 1 or 2), some games benefit from ecores on (again, just a couple), most games don't care about it. So turning them off is just silly.

Games do not scale beyond 8 cores and not many even scale to more than 6.

Disabling e cores makes sense for more thermal headroom especially on air cooling with a static manual all core all the time overclock. Only have to stress test and account for rock solid stability of 8 p cores. If intel had an 8 p core only CPU that would be the buy. But they do not. And don't say buy AMD if you want only 8 strong cores. AMDs strong 8 Zen 4 cores are not as good as Intel

 

[Wolverine2349]

Turning them off makes absolutely no sense.


No it doesn't. Im running 5.8 ghz cyberpunk 2077 with ecores on. Are you saying that if I turn off ecores ill run 5.9 or 6.0ghz with the same voltage?

You have insane cooling. I cannot touch higher than 5.6GHz on p cores even with e cores off on an NH-D15S let alone with them on.

Ring is so easy to clock to 5GHz with off. With them on no way. Games like ring clock and RAM speed and fast all p core clock speed.