I guess, but if you build 4 helions thats 400 minerals lost, thats a base. You only force one spine and around 8 lings, so 300 minerals, i usually get 6>8 drones with my banshee, thats 300 minerals, and the extra that drones will mine, and a drone lost building evo, and an extra queen, and the spores. I just prefer to go banshee overall.
**** Original Starcraft 2 Thread ****
- Thread starter mohawk
- Start date
It's not about minerals used. It's about forcing the Zerg to use larva on lings when he'd wrather be droning and making sure he doesn't take a fast third.
With the added map control you get from this while also denying creep spread you can go up to 3 bases depending on how confident you are.
and if you force him to go Roaches then he'd have wasted so much gas that he would have preferably saved for Mutas or infestors or upgrades.
When playing against Bismarck:
http://qkme.me/36i1ks
http://qkme.me/36i1ks
Bismarck?
Associate
- Joined
- 6 Jun 2011
- Posts
- 2,176
- Location
- EU...
Right. I have seen plenty of pros do builds which don't start off with reactored hellions. Are you saying that you would laugh at them for doing this? You would think they are "ignoring the metagame", "acting like a SC2 Hipster" and being "stupid"? These are all direct quotes from your posts. If the answer is no, you wouldn't think that, then that implies the only reason you said these things to me is because you were trying to act superior towards someone in a lower league than you. Hence you were being a douchebag. If the answer is yes, then you are still a douchebag as you think you know better than the pro players.
That concludes my involvement with your trolling. I won't bother responding to you again unless you post something worth a response.
I think we will naturally address many of them. The main reason they've been identified is we're playing people who can expose many weaknesses, it's amazing just how many weaknesses you can have! My biggest problem at the moment is ZvT: remaking sniped queens from drops, injects and upgrades. Identified from playing macro heavy players.
Not what i've seen in the most recent ROG Assembly,IPL TAC2, MLG, IPL FC, IEM and any other daily/weekly tournaments where it's actually pros playing.
Just face it, reactor'd hellion is a great build that can transition into mostly anything and not taking advantage of it is the equivalent of not getting stim lol.
You also said yourself in your original post that you don't see it being done much (siege expand). That's because if the Zerg is any good then he'll be way ahead of you cos you're playing too passively. There's no way you can have enough units with that to take map control when he's just starting Muta production in the probable Muta/Ling/Bling style that's so popular atm.
Last edited:
Associate
- Joined
- 5 Apr 2011
- Posts
- 515
cant wait for splash damage air units for tos just went 0-5 against zerg who either went mass muta or fast brutes , and 2 were my fault due to bad micro etc but honestly mass muta
I
HATE
IT !!!!
I
HATE
IT !!!!
Associate
- Joined
- 6 Jun 2011
- Posts
- 2,176
- Location
- EU...
The Zerg doesn't get "way ahead". I get my 1st expo up only shortly after he does. I throw up a 3rd CC in my base after I'm safe with a few siege tanks so I have extra mules. Then I build up a decent ball, push out and kill off some bases. My micro is very good (relative to most of my opponents) so I almost always kill off at least 1 base with this first push. The timing I hit at, the zerg's 4th is either building, or hasn't been up long, so really it's 3 base Z vs 2 base T (with an extra orbital command). I'd say in terms of economy that would favour the terran. Basically I slow push with my tanks, scanning and waiting for the creep to recede, meanwhile building up reinforcements at my base. Eventually the zerg will whittle down my initial force and finish it off, but by this time I have macroed up a 2nd similar sized army at my base which I send straight to his natural. Usually this'll win the game, but if it doesn't I'll float my extra OC to my 3rd and start dropping everywhere.
It seems to me that it's a myth that terran HAS to do some pressure early on otherwise the zerg will outmacro them and win. If the terran expands early and gets extra OCs regularly it's quite easy to keep up
Soldato
- Joined
- 28 Nov 2004
- Posts
- 2,826
- Location
- London
TvZ is currently my most favourable matchup... sure if you can get your hellions into his mineral line and get some free kills that is good but i agree the purpose of them is map control and keeping the zerg on the defensive... any kills is a bonus
Following on from this i go for your standard marine tank with a couple of thors to defend against muta harass.
If it goes late game i usually have enough vikings to kill of his broodlords, if he goes ultra my tanks are usually enough
Only issue i have is infestor, they completely decimate a marine blob if you dont have some detection out front
My biggest issue currently is the protoss death blob (chargelots, stalkers, collossus/high templar). My micro is usually not good enough to get off my emp's before his uber units wreck my poor mm blob. I know i need to be more aggressive and go scouting with my ghosts in the front but thats easier said than done.
The way i see it is, sure go into my mineral line. If you have 4 hellions you need to kill 8 drones to make it worth it (which they hardly ever do) and once you get your hellions killed I have complete map control, can deny your third and see where your army is positioned and moving too whilst mass expanding and getting a huge muta/ling bling army going.
My point exactly.
I've got several thousand games racked up between my two accounts and TvZ is my favorite matchup. I know playing defensively against a Zerg is exactly what they want.
TvP has got to be my worst matchup -_- I just find it so hard to do much that the Protoss doesn't just stop blindly. I think Sentrys have got to be the stupidest and most annoying unit ingame IMO. Give me pre-patch infestors and High templars anyday.
When it gets into the late game it also becomes near impossible to deal with a good Protoss. I'm not saying it's impossible but it's just so much harder than any other matchup.
I've got several thousand games racked up between my two accounts and TvZ is my favorite matchup. I know playing defensively against a Zerg is exactly what they want.
TvP has got to be my worst matchup -_- I just find it so hard to do much that the Protoss doesn't just stop blindly. I think Sentrys have got to be the stupidest and most annoying unit ingame IMO. Give me pre-patch infestors and High templars anyday.
When it gets into the late game it also becomes near impossible to deal with a good Protoss. I'm not saying it's impossible but it's just so much harder than any other matchup.
Last edited:
Associate
- Joined
- 6 Jun 2011
- Posts
- 2,176
- Location
- EU...
Yeah infestors are my biggest problem too. A mass of banelings rolls in and I can't split my marines because of the fungals = gg. The proper counter is ghosts but I always forget to buy them before it's too late, or I buy too many too early and the rest of my army isn't strong enough.
We're in agreement for once Kamwah. I always end the game (one way or another) against protoss before it gets to this stage, with a 2 rax. I used to try macro games against them but I couldn't win against the death ball so I just thought screw it I'm gonna pressure them early to try and stop them getting it. TvP has gone from my worst matchup to my 2nd best, only just behind my TvZ.
Last edited:
IEM has been really good so far. Feast put on an excellent show to get to the semi-finals, and even managed to take a game off of MC before losing 3-1 (one of which was the best cannon rush I think I've ever seen). Slightly surprised in the other semi-final to see MMA lose 3-1 to Puma, especially in the one-sided way it ended up being after MMA took the first map. MMA had actually not dropped a single map all tournament - his tournament record going into the second game against Puma was 14-0 - and then Puma just took the next 3 quite easily.
Puma vs MC final then. Rooting for MC as I'm a Protoss player, and he's just an awesome character, but his record vs Puma isn't that great. Puma's TvP is possibly the best in the world, though MC's PvT isn't far off being the best either - maybe Genius is better?
Puma vs MC final then. Rooting for MC as I'm a Protoss player, and he's just an awesome character, but his record vs Puma isn't that great. Puma's TvP is possibly the best in the world, though MC's PvT isn't far off being the best either - maybe Genius is better?
Last edited:
MC just won against Puma in the IEM VI World Championship.
IMO it shows just how OP Toss is. He even failed terribly at aggression during the first 10'ish minutes, can't believe how he just came back against Puma even though he didn't really make any mistakes.
IMO it shows just how OP Toss is. He even failed terribly at aggression during the first 10'ish minutes, can't believe how he just came back against Puma even though he didn't really make any mistakes.
You referring to game four on Entombed Valley? I thought Puma made a few mistakes in that game actually - when he pushed MC back and killed off all his zealots and sentries, he was too confident of winning the game and pushed his natural rather than going to the third (did he even scout it?). He also continued to build Medivacs even when he had 5 sitting idle, so more than half his army supply was made up of units that couldn't attack. Once MC had Blink and 3 bases mining his counter-push was never really going to fail, given his blink micro is just about the best in the world.
The final game I thought Puma slacked a little on his upgrades (he was ahead for quite a long time, and then suddenly found himself with 1-0 to MC's 2-2, then 2-1 to 3-3), and he delayed too long with the push on MC's third which sparked the big engagement. 15-20 seconds earlier (which was time he spent doing nothing in the middle) and storm wouldn't have finished, so Puma probably would've won the game from there. Even after that engagement and with him being obviously behind, the lack of a robo meant he could've pulled it back with his cloaked ghosts picking off all the light units of MC, but we didn't really see it. His micro was fantastic to keep him in it for so much longer but he was never going to win against a player of MC's quality in that position.
You have to remember that MC is arguably the best player there has been in Starcraft 2 since its release; certainly the best Protoss. It's really not just a case of "if he's behind but he wins, his race must be OP". MC won those games with some incredible moves that nobody else could've pulled off as well as he did.
The final game I thought Puma slacked a little on his upgrades (he was ahead for quite a long time, and then suddenly found himself with 1-0 to MC's 2-2, then 2-1 to 3-3), and he delayed too long with the push on MC's third which sparked the big engagement. 15-20 seconds earlier (which was time he spent doing nothing in the middle) and storm wouldn't have finished, so Puma probably would've won the game from there. Even after that engagement and with him being obviously behind, the lack of a robo meant he could've pulled it back with his cloaked ghosts picking off all the light units of MC, but we didn't really see it. His micro was fantastic to keep him in it for so much longer but he was never going to win against a player of MC's quality in that position.
You have to remember that MC is arguably the best player there has been in Starcraft 2 since its release; certainly the best Protoss. It's really not just a case of "if he's behind but he wins, his race must be OP". MC won those games with some incredible moves that nobody else could've pulled off as well as he did.