**** Original Starcraft 2 Thread ****

[Hurlbag]

When you're going fast expand vs Zerg, Bunkers alone are useless against baneling busts, since you only have single target DPS.
If you're going to fast expand vs Zerg you pretty much need tanks to prevent that, or some kind of hyper-aggression with marines but that involves a lot of control

Next time you do that, get gas on 15, factory ASAP and 2nd gas while it's building and pump out 3-4 tanks which will keep you safe early game. It shouldn't hinder your fast expansion much at all. Of course this will likely make him feel free to take all the expansions he wants, and most probably mutalisks so don't neglect your marine count and aggression to his economy will be necessary after you start benefiting from that 1st expansion.

 

[Tune]

Watching now, well you say you scouted but all you saw was lings, you should have sent out one marine to see, you had plenty of time to prepare and block with rax, could have even went back into main if you wanted and blocked with cc/3rax. You didn't really prepare for it or scan at all, Bunker + depots are not very good against banes

 

[Guest2]

You went 10 mins in a ZvZ without scouting?! You're asking to be beaten

My problem is that when i scout, I do not built as fast so lose out on tech / army.

I find it easier to fend off scouts and race for army and observers. I will probably have to learn to scount whilst building if I want to get much better than I am now.

I dont find Protoss linear, there are many different things you can do. Some quite sneaky.

But yes, Zerg does has many other options and mass expand

 

[SheepBeast]

Watching now, well you say you scouted but all you saw was lings, you should have sent out one marine to see, you had plenty of time to prepare and block with rax, could have even went back into main if you wanted and blocked with cc/3rax. You didn't really prepare for it or scan at all, Bunker + depots are not very good against banes

I saw he went early hatch, then a few minutes later I saw about 20-30 lings streaming towards my base. The only thing that could possibly be is a baneling bust. No zerg would be stupid enough to make that many lings and try and attack a wall off without any banelings. There was no point in me scanning or doing further scouting as I literally knew 100% what he was doing.

I think, as Hurlbag said, the problem was more that I used a poor build order for TvZ. Rather than delaying the tanks as much as I did, I'd be better off starting with 2 rax pressure and then just going bio and keeping constant pressure on the zerg. A better BO for marine tank would be to 1 rax FE like I did but then get double gas before adding the extra rax.

 

[Hurlbag]

My problem is that when i scout, I do not built as fast so lose out on tech / army.

I find it easier to fend off scouts and race for army and observers. I will probably have to learn to scount whilst building if I want to get much better than I am now.

I dont find Protoss linear, there are many different things you can do. Some quite sneaky.

But yes, Zerg does has many other options and mass expand

Bind your scouts to seperate keys, double tap scout, double tap back to base - it's a bit overwhelming to constantly take care with your scouting units (whatever you use, ovies round the back are best as you're zerg) at first and macro, but you get used to it.

Hell even playing by yourself vs easy AI or something and practicing that whilst keeping your money as low as possible and worker count up will do you wonders.

 

[dave1983]

The other thing you have to keep an eye on aswell is Population Cap.

from reading forums

you need between 25 - 30 workers + plus armoury + enough docks to keep from overcrapping, timing is the key

 

[feedtheram]

If it's been so long since you last played that you'd be bad as any race then I'd recommend playing Protoss or Zerg, in the current metagame Terran is definitely seems harder to play

I was thinking of doing that actually as i never really learnt the other races well enough to correctly counter. Even if i don't get on with them it should still strengthen my Terran game.

 

[Guest2]

The other thing you have to keep an eye on aswell is Population Cap.

from reading forums

you need between 25 - 30 workers + plus armoury + enough docks to keep from overcrapping, timing is the key

Isnt it 3 works per mineral field / gas so 30 works on one 'base'

I always get to about 20 and move out to another. Set up camp after scouting and making sure nothing will come that way and kill my workers.

Then move units to protect the new field and move 20 or so workers from the main base. That way you can carry on harvesting and producing new units and resources will not run out at main base as fast

 

[PaddyMC89]

Oh I'm always overcrapping. Turns out I just never have enough docks!

 

[nex20]

Isnt it 3 works per mineral field / gas so 30 works on one 'base'

I always get to about 20 and move out to another. Set up camp after scouting and making sure nothing will come that way and kill my workers.

Then move units to protect the new field and move 20 or so workers from the main base. That way you can carry on harvesting and producing new units and resources will not run out at main base as fast

The most optimal way is 16 workers per base + 3 additional works in each gas. So 22 in total.

 

[Guest2]

The most optimal way is 16 workers per base + 3 additional works in each gas. So 22 in total.

Really? I thought it was 3 per crystal field, not 2?

 

[Kamwah]

Really? I thought it was 3 per crystal field, not 2?

They mine more efficiently with just two on each mineral node.

 

[SheepBeast]

Really? I thought it was 3 per crystal field, not 2?

No.
Optimal saturation is the largest value of (income) divided by (number of workers). This occurs at 2 per field. You do get a moderately higher income by putting 3 on every field, but the income generated per worker falls slightly. If you had the same number of workers, but spread them out over more bases, then your income would be quite a bit higher.

As you probably know, you generally you never want to be on more than 66 total workers for Terran. For Protoss it's more like 75 and Zerg maybe 80. Ideally as P and Z once you get above 16 mineral gatherers at a particular expansion you should expand again rather than continue to saturate the one you've got. For Terran it's often a good idea to oversaturate a bit in preperation for doing a transfer, simply because Terran produces workers at a much slower rate. You need 6 gas gathers so add that to the 16 for minerals and optimally you should have 22 per expansion. So as Terran you should never be mining from more than 3 bases with workers, and you only want to take a 4th and 5th once you start to mine out your main and natural. You can actually get them a bit earlier though and just use them for muling.

For P and Z you want to take a 4th a minute or two before your main is mined out. Earlier is ok for Z since you can just use it as a macro hatch until you actually have enough workers to justify mining from it.

Basically it's ok as Terran to have more than 22 workers at an expo since it does grant extra income (up to maximum of 30) as long as you are planning on transferring once your expansion finishes. For the other races, you should never go above 22.

 

[DJammyRasta]

Been attempting to work on my macro by 1 rax FE ala FilterSC... i still loose fairly often but feel i am improving.... Was off yesterday so got in a good number of games and found myself struggling in TvT's (used to be quite good at this when going through my 2 rax aggression phase).

I want to stick with the 1rax FE but find someone doing an 8 minute 111 push hurts me greatly. They have tanks that i do not yet have and a viking already to keep air superiority.. i have double the income and 3 rax with medivacs being built but they siege up on the low ground and im in trouble... any advce?

 

[Guest2]

How would I know if terran is going early reapers? Is there anything to stop an early reaper attack on workers other than building stalkers as fast as possible.

I ******* hate early 4 reaper rush

 

[Crimefighter]

How would I know if terran is going early reapers? Is there anything to stop an early reaper attack on workers other than building stalkers as fast as possible.

I ******* hate early 4 reaper rush

Im no expert but ill give it a go.

Barracks with the tech addon, and some gas being mined. Your early scout (probe or whatever) should see this. Could be Marauders though, Im not sure how you distinguish between the two (timings?).

As Zerg I put down a couple of spine crawlers in my mineral line and that puts an end to it. Maybe a photon cannon or 2 of you are Protoss? Never played Protoss so Im not sure.

 

[Tune]

well reaper is usually 12rax 13gas and tech lab before the marine. Just chrono a stalker and put it on patrol at the edge of your base.

 

[DJammyRasta]

How would I know if terran is going early reapers? Is there anything to stop an early reaper attack on workers other than building stalkers as fast as possible.

I ******* hate early 4 reaper rush

From a scouting standpoint he will have gas and a tech lab on his barracks.. this could mean he could be going for fast tanks or reapers... not sure how to distinguish between the 2.... Usually there aren't that many places to jump up rocks so its the best bet to leave your stalkers right there... he will jump up and die instantly hopefully

Been struggling with my TvP (as everyone does these days) may have to give this a go

 

[SheepBeast]

I'm really enjoying my switch to Zerg, ling and baneling micro is ridiculously fun . Also fungal growth + bane rain vs protoss deathballs works so well. So far they've just went mass colossi with a handful of assorted other units so they don't have enough anti air to kill more than 1 or 2 overlords before i drop. So much QQing

How would I know if terran is going early reapers? Is there anything to stop an early reaper attack on workers other than building stalkers as fast as possible.

I ******* hate early 4 reaper rush

As others have said, scout with your probe that builds your first pylon and if you see him get gas then you know it's either reapers, marauders, a 1/1/1 or banshees. There are other possibilities but they're not worth considering since they'll make up like 0.5% of your games. To narrow down the list of these possibilities you need to poke up the ramp now and then with your probe. If you see a tech lab then it's either reapers or marauders. A common follow up to this is cloaked banshees later on so you should be ready with an observer around the 7:30 mark.

I'm not 100% sure of the correct way to deal with early marauders as P, but for reapers you just need to chrono out a stalker or two and put them on the cliffs where his reapers would jump if he just clicked in your base on the minimap. 95% of terran players aren't smart enough to take a more obscure route (i know this because i encounter reaper expos a lot in TvT and the enemy reapers always instadie when they jump into my base

Been attempting to work on my macro by 1 rax FE ala FilterSC... i still loose fairly often but feel i am improving.... Was off yesterday so got in a good number of games and found myself struggling in TvT's (used to be quite good at this when going through my 2 rax aggression phase).

I want to stick with the 1rax FE but find someone doing an 8 minute 111 push hurts me greatly. They have tanks that i do not yet have and a viking already to keep air superiority.. i have double the income and 3 rax with medivacs being built but they siege up on the low ground and im in trouble... any advce?

If you 1 rax FE against a 1/1/1 you will have a lot more marines than him when he moves out. All you need to do is keep the xelnaga towers, and run your marines in when his tanks are unsieged, and you'll wipe his army out easily. At the very least, focus fire his tanks meanwhile you can have a bunker or two back home for your reinforcing marines, so if he does win the engagement he can't actually do any damage to your base until he gets some more tanks.

 

[Kamwah]

Been attempting to work on my macro by 1 rax FE ala FilterSC... i still loose fairly often but feel i am improving.... Was off yesterday so got in a good number of games and found myself struggling in TvT's (used to be quite good at this when going through my 2 rax aggression phase).

I want to stick with the 1rax FE but find someone doing an 8 minute 111 push hurts me greatly. They have tanks that i do not yet have and a viking already to keep air superiority.. i have double the income and 3 rax with medivacs being built but they siege up on the low ground and im in trouble... any advce?

Don't do a 1 rax FE. Do a reaper expand, much better and lets you get a second scout in your base while getting gas faster. It'll allow you to get out something to deal with the tank push.