**** Original Starcraft 2 Thread ****

Guest2 said:
What is a good Protoss counter to Mutas? They are too strong for pheonix, too quick for void rays and too quick for stalkers.

I had a game where an opponent had about 10 and was looping around my base, I couldn't really do anything because they were too fast
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Phoenix hard counter them with bronze-level micro.
Blink Stalkers only deal with them in small numbers, you need Storm if you go down this route and a few Archons.

Also be aware of what other forces he has on the field, if he doesn't have anything else noteworthy then just go kill him.

Guest2 said:
How do you calculate how many minutes into a game you are? Is there a timer?

E.g. When an am told to "rush at 6 mins" is it 6 real time minutes or in game minutes that are faster?
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Always gametimer. It's never realtime.

Kreeeee said:
I would learn the following basic opener:

9 overlord
14 spawning pool
15 hatchery
14 queen
16 2 pairs of zerglings (scout opponent and leave at choke/towers)
18 overlord
Get 2nd queen and build drones
6 minutes get 2 x gas
7 minutes start teching (roach/banneling etc)

I like to use changelings to scout regularly, and build units that counter theirs. I like to have 1 more base then them, so if a Protoss goes Forge fast expand or a Terran goes 1 Barracks fast expand then I get my third at 21 supply. Dot your overlords around to see drops and enemy movement, it's worth losing 1/2 to see what the opponent is up to and it lets you catch them out of position.
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^ Outdated build that will die to Hellion/Banshee.

At least 4 queens and choose either Banelings or Roach (Banelings being the more useful option) and also think about when your third is coming.

A spine crawler and simcity needs to be in early'ish plan so you can stop hellion runbys effectively. No-one builds more than 1 set of lings anymore unless they're going for pressure/all-in.
 
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Storms destroy mutas. If you can leave 1 HT and 1 cannon at each base that should help/deter mutas. Also blink stalkers are very good. I rarely go phoenix to count mutas, since building the stargate when mutas are out takes too long. If you've got a SG out get em by all means, though corruptors later in the game will own them.
 
Seriously annoying sometimes. One game I just had DT wiped out all my probes after I fended off lings

The second game two sets of lings came straight into my base as I didn't wall off quick enough
 
Kamwah you seem to have a pretty good knowledge of the game so I'm going to put forward what I struggle with as zerg to you.

Macro, micro and creep surface area I am fine with along with expanding etc. The problem is that most zerg style which I have watched or read say to be passive and patient and to counter attack.

However most players of terran and protoss ( protoss more so ) seem to just ball up in their natural then come out with massive upgrades and tech. End result me losing the game despite dominating the map minerals etc.

What am I doing wrong ? I even scout well so I know exactly what the enemy are building it just seems there are not as many counters for a zerg player :(
 
Guest2 said:
What is a good Protoss counter to Mutas? They are too strong for pheonix, too quick for void rays and too quick for stalkers.

I had a game where an opponent had about 10 and was looping around my base, I couldn't really do anything because they were too fast
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Indeed... the most important thing with Mutas is to keep progressing... Don't just sit tight on whatever bases you have with whatever tech you have... Get blink and a reasonable amount of stalkers as quickly as you can, 1 or 2 cannons (1 if less than 10 mutas) by each mineral line and keep teching to HT and psi storm... Once you have storm, Muta harass should be completely 100% over. BUT, if you sit on 2 bases while you build your twilight council, templar archives and research psi storm, you will be wayyyy behind.

So, try to get a third base (presuming you have 2 already). Set up a pylon with the nexus and as soon as you can, place 3 or 4 cannons by the third - it is really really important that you manage to get the next base up as a good zerg will probably be getting 3rd, 4th, maybe even 5th if you just sit at home on 2 bases. Don't be too afraid to place your nexus early - worst thing that can happen is that you have to cancel and lose 100 minerals - that's the same as 2 probes anyway. Most of your army should be near your 3rd in a position where it won't die, with a wall blocking ling run bys to the main and 2nd. The stalkers should be in a place where they can quickly get to both mineral lines and the 3rd nexus within a few seconds.

This assumes that you don't want to just go all in, which can win but is also risky as his mutas can kill your economy and still be back home in time to help defend.
 
Guest2 said:
Seriously annoying sometimes. One game I just had DT wiped out all my probes after I fended off lings

The second game two sets of lings came straight into my base as I didn't wall off quick enough
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If a build doesn't incorporate a third, an evo chamber or two and also a spore then it's a bad build.

4Play said:
Kamwah you seem to have a pretty good knowledge of the game so I'm going to put forward what I struggle with as zerg to you.

Macro, micro and creep surface area I am fine with along with expanding etc. The problem is that most zerg style which I have watched or read say to be passive and patient and to counter attack.

However most players of terran and protoss ( protoss more so ) seem to just ball up in their natural then come out with massive upgrades and tech. End result me losing the game despite dominating the map minerals etc.

What am I doing wrong ? I even scout well so I know exactly what the enemy are building it just seems there are not as many counters for a zerg player :(
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If you're having a problem then your micro, macro or understanding must be lacking somewhere. Without a few replays (maybe 1 each matchup) I can't point out what you're doing wrong. I'm not too knowledgeable with Zerg build orders but I can help with everything else.
 
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4Play said:
Kamwah you seem to have a pretty good knowledge of the game so I'm going to put forward what I struggle with as zerg to you.

Macro, micro and creep surface area I am fine with along with expanding etc. The problem is that most zerg style which I have watched or read say to be passive and patient and to counter attack.

However most players of terran and protoss ( protoss more so ) seem to just ball up in their natural then come out with massive upgrades and tech. End result me losing the game despite dominating the map minerals etc.

What am I doing wrong ? I even scout well so I know exactly what the enemy are building it just seems there are not as many counters for a zerg player :(
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I can't say without replays, but if you're trying to destroy a deathball protoss army with mass roach/ling/hydra, that is probably your problem.

Zerg is generally supply inefficient (i.e. the 200 supply army isn't that strong) until they get hive tech... The only exceptions being banelings and infestors (and you obviously can't build a 'deathball' defeating army with banelings and infestors).

Against protoss, if it's a lategame army of stalker, sentry, collosus, immortal or something like that, it's designed to destroy 'conventional' armies (mass roach/roach ling/roach hydra) and golly gosh it does...

The obvious option is to really quickly tech to broodlords - with a supporting army underneath to prevent archons and blink stalkers from just killing them all, you will probably win. However, if he leaves before you are ready, you're probably dead.

Other options are things like ling surround with banelings being dropped from speed overlords - this is good if he's relying on a lot of sentries to FF roach ling out. An army made of mostly blink stalkers will obviously crush this though.

I guess the real answer is using infestors with mass ling/roach surround (if he has collossus, get corruptors) and replenish instantly and ideally keeping your infestors alive. At some point, you will need to get broodlords though
 
Joe is correct for your level of play unless your masters+ which I assume you're not.

There are notable Zergs who stick on Lair tech for much longer than usual because they're more microable and with great control comes great efficiency.
 
Just done my first 5 1v1's as Zerg (placement matches): http://db.tt/EPZNuo76

Anybody want to give me some advice, particularly in the last match and the ZvZ?

I've only ever played 3v3 and a few 2v2's up until now, and only with Terran and Protoss really. Finally though I should learn to play proper SC2 and it's so much harder!
 
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I'd appreciate anyone's input, regardless of skill level.

In the zvz I was trying a build I saw on YouTube but failed.
 
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You vs Natsufires(T) - Antiga Shipyard

Your split could use work, I personally send my workers to the mineral line, build the worker than split. It can take some practice and it's slightly harder as Zerg but it's a small point.

You're not building your drones quickly enough.

You should always send your first Overlord to cross positions on a 4player map. It can catch proxies at the Xel'Naga and it's just what everyone does.

I would personally drone scout sooner, if he doesn't have gas you should be going 15hatch, 14pool and then decide whether you want to get Speed, Roaches, Multiple Queens, drone then a third etc...

You went 3 hatch before gas which isn't really a good build against Terran because without speed, roaches or banelings you'll die to marines.

Only build 1 spine, you should be creating a wall with 1 queen, 1 spine and 2 evos. It can be either next to the hatch or it can be at the natural ramp.

When you expand (Your third and natural) there should be an overlord over them so they can't bunker them without your knowledge.

You shouldn't go Baneling and Roaches.
Roaches are good for early pressure, all-ins or against puremech (They don't work against MVP's Thor/Hellion/Banshee style)
Banelings are useful against all compositions even mech if he's not got a good spread (which a lot of mech players don't do). Baneling and Roach drops also work but it's one of those gimmicky styles which requires some less than basic control.

Lair should be started way before you did. Atleast your +1 Armor should have been done by now. (10:14)

No baneling speed = You should be morphing them closer. (11:35)

You've made all these lings yet you're not fully saturated at any of your bases.

Don't use hydralisks ever. They should only come out against Protoss (Stargate) or as a hail mary against fast Mutalisks (Infestors or your own Mutas is the correct choice) OR the incredibly rare Sky Terran composition.

That leads onto my next point. You need to have some kind of Lair tech unit (Mutas or Infestors). Infestors is the better choice and Mutas are only good on certain maps (Although some pros use them on most maps. DRG)

You can win against bio with just Ling/Bling but your upgrades are nowhere to be seen and you're not making enough drones or expanding enough. Once you have the middle on Xel'naga which you do then you should expand to the middle and the base next to your main (the other bases natural third).

Your scouting is non-existent, you don't know what he's doing so you can't react properly. He's on 2 base, he's going bio and you're clueless. There's nothing wrong with sacking 1/2 overlords, all Zergs do it.
Also have an Overlord on the third spewing creep when you get to lairtech.

You've gone Hivetech but no Ultralisk Cavern or Spire? You've got enough money to do anything you want atm.
Also no Pathogen Glands for the Infestors you should have got a while back. (20:27)

Not sure why the Terran left, he hadn't lost yet with the units he had at home and his huge bank.

------

Just about to watch the ZvZ you gave me.
 
Krogoth vs Disturbia(Z) - Ohana

I thought you was cheesing for a second but gas-openers = nono.

Get your pool after you've expanded. You can get gas before or after the pool but that depends on what you find out from your scouting OL)

You don't need a spine crawler, drone scout at 9 if you're really that scared of an early pool.

Your spine is still in your main when it should be at your natural now.

You can see his overlords are watching you come out, he's preparing and you're wasting any opening you had.

You don't have a queen at your main.

You did some random 2base all-in with 50% less workers and you didn't go straight away. I can't give much explanation unless you provide a proper game.

If you add me onto skype (TheKamwah) we can chat on their (much easier with a mic) about any questions you have. The same with anyone else here, it's much easier then taking an hour to watch a 30min replay.
 
That's a lot to take in! Thanks a lot for your feedback.

So, taking baby steps here, I have set myself 3 goals for future games:

1 - Scout more (drone scout and overlord sacrifice, I do ovie scout/spread and changling scout already)
2 - Incorporate Infestors into my games
3 - Stick to 14 Pool, 15 Hatch openers until I am comfortable with that, then build on that

I had 3 bases in that last ZvT because I scouted that they had 2 bases and I wanted to always have 1 more than them.
 
Kreeeee said:
That's a lot to take in! Thanks a lot for your feedback.

So, taking baby steps here, I have set myself 3 goals for future games:

1 - Scout more (drone scout and overlord sacrifice, I do ovie scout/spread and changling scout already)
2 - Incorporate Infestors into my games
3 - Stick to 14 Pool, 15 Hatch openers until I am comfortable with that, then build on that

I had 3 bases in that last ZvT because I scouted that they had 2 bases and I wanted to always have 1 more than them.
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1. Changeling scouting is something that not many players do but it's never a negative.

2. Zerg is macro based and is all about positional battles and trading efficiently while having the most mobile army that can counter-attack and have the most map control.
Your opponents need to micro against all AoE and Fungal negates micro so Infestors is a must in any composition.
If you don't know, when Pathogen Glands is half done then you can start your Infestors and when they pop they'll have the extra energy.
Also if you go for Infestors straight away in ZvT/P you are leaving yourself open for a timing where an opponent with good micro will stomp you.
A defensive Baneling nest for Terran and a defensive Roach Warren for Zerg is usually needed. They're not that expensive, useful later on and also keep you safe as a 'he's coming at you then you can make Roaches'

3. Once you get used to Zerg and what you should be scouting for then you'll find that you learn what openers you can do a hatch first against and on what maps it's good on.

The Zerg production mechanic means you should just keep expanding but don't go above 2 more bases than him unless you're on a huge map like Entombed, Tal'Darim or Daybreak and you have map control (You shouldn't ever lose this as Zerg except against Hellion/Banshee or Stargate(Toss) openers.
Also on Antiga you want to be in the middle after you've got 3 bases saturated because whoever controls the middle will have the advantage.
 
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