Can I give you a match sometime kar? You will almost certainly crush me but it will definitely help (me at least).
Sure Kar.310.
**** Original Starcraft 2 Thread ****
- Thread starter mohawk
- Start date
Sure Kar.310.
Associate
- Joined
- 12 Jun 2006
- Posts
- 2,323
ROFL I rushed 3 protoss today with my Planetary Fortress,won all of them 
I know it's cheesy and sad but it's really funny aswell 
I know it's cheesy and sad but it's really funny aswell 
Soldato
- Joined
- 18 Oct 2002
- Posts
- 9,637
- Location
- Xbox Live
Without any science being involved I actually find this build to be better suited to my game than the various "standard builds"
I have found I am able to hold my own against Gold and Platinum level players of all races using this build (I've been top 5 of my gold devision for about a week, but am only playing 2-4 1v1s a night so haven't gone up a league yet).
As I said there is a slight economic disadvantage doing this. But it is made back when your queen pops and you spray the hatch (in a 14 pool/hatch build I would always creep first as I had sufficient larva to spend my money). I also get into the tech tree sooner and in many games I feel like I have more units on the field. I actually think its overall improved my macro game.
This BO may not last forever but its something I am playing with at the moment and it seems to be taking advantage of the Meta-game where all non-Z players seem to either cheese or sitback thinking they have time to do whatever it is they do
I tend to scout at 12 rather than 10 as 10 seems a bit early (unless its a 4 base map)... Actually its very early if you extractor trick.
I find with a 14 pool I'm queuing up larva on two occasions.
When I 9 overlord - 2/3drones queue
Just after my pool/hatch whilst waiting for my money to re-accrue
Then when I had a spot where I had too much money and not enough larva before my second hatch popped (about 250 minerals)
My 11pool seems to have corrected most of those issues.
Now I only have the time waiting for the overlord to pop where I have larva building up (I think it just gets to 3) and after that I never have any larva left and my money remains low. I'm actually using this build as a basis for a macro game, but its adaptable enough to strongly react to cheese, without causing me to deviate from my build other than lobbing down a few spine crawlers and extra lings.
Last edited:
I got booted out of a game last night too. Why is it whenever that happens it gets chalked up as a loss for me and a win for my opponent (2nd or 3rd time it's happened now in the last week) ?
V annoying as I was ahead playing a player in the league above me
Just started playing the MP after completing the campaign. Currently in the silver league as Zerg but having a few issues.
I seem to be able to play not too badly with one base but as soon as I expand I always seem to have far too many minerals (1000+) and I can't seem to use it efficiently as I'm not able to spend it as quickly as I like. I keep looking back at my replays and try to work out what I could be buying but it may be down to my poor macro and forgetting to use my queens larvae thing when off cool down.
If anyone has any tips for Zerg then please do say, I could also post some replays if that would show it better than I could explain
Despite this though I seem to be working my way up the silver bracket I'm in and having a lot of fun. If anyone wants to add me and play here's my name: StateMimic 573
I seem to be able to play not too badly with one base but as soon as I expand I always seem to have far too many minerals (1000+) and I can't seem to use it efficiently as I'm not able to spend it as quickly as I like. I keep looking back at my replays and try to work out what I could be buying but it may be down to my poor macro and forgetting to use my queens larvae thing when off cool down.
If anyone has any tips for Zerg then please do say, I could also post some replays if that would show it better than I could explain
Despite this though I seem to be working my way up the silver bracket I'm in and having a lot of fun. If anyone wants to add me and play here's my name: StateMimic 573
Just started playing the MP after completing the campaign. Currently in the silver league as Zerg but having a few issues.
I seem to be able to play not too badly with one base but as soon as I expand I always seem to have far too many minerals (1000+) and I can't seem to use it efficiently as I'm not able to spend it as quickly as I like. I keep looking back at my replays and try to work out what I could be buying but it may be down to my poor macro and forgetting to use my queens larvae thing when off cool down.
If anyone has any tips for Zerg then please do say, I could also post some replays if that would show it better than I could explain
Despite this though I seem to be working my way up the silver bracket I'm in and having a lot of fun. If anyone wants to add me and play here's my name: StateMimic 573
Add me (Luxotican.425) - i'd add you myself but my instal got corrupt so im downloading again atm!
If you have any replays, post them
I'll upload some replays shortly as well if you like. Im Zerg player in the top half of Diamond League. as pure zerg i normally end up around top 10-15. but been playing some Terra\n recently to try and work out counters.
Awesome, added mate. Yeah if you could upload some replays that'd be sweet I'd love to watch a diamond player.
Here's the only decent replay I have at the moment because I never remember to save them, but it shows my problems quite well. The Terran player was too defensive and allowed me to do whatever I wanted which is probably why I won. I'm sure there's tons of holes in my game. I'll try get a better replay later though.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/b5aby6otgni3qhk/Scrap Station.SC2Replay
Here's the only decent replay I have at the moment because I never remember to save them, but it shows my problems quite well. The Terran player was too defensive and allowed me to do whatever I wanted which is probably why I won. I'm sure there's tons of holes in my game. I'll try get a better replay later though.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/b5aby6otgni3qhk/Scrap Station.SC2Replay
omg... I've just been raped.. 4 times in a row. Painful.
That's just dropped me about 10 places! Think I'll stop ladder for tonight
Same
Only had 2 games rather than the 4 though, I know were I've gone wrong both times which is always annoying 
Ehhehh, just finished a 1 hour 22 minutes FFA, totally epic I ended up mining out half of an 8 player map, other half was a battleground between a terran and another zerg. Watching the replay though, the zerg was having a really tough time trying to break the terran's turtle then banshees/vikings just rolled over him (then i came along with my 200/200 brood lord/hydra army and 22000/10000 banked resources ).
I ended up mining out half of an 8 player map, other half was a battleground between a terran and another zerg. Watching the replay though, the zerg was having a really tough time trying to break the terran's turtle then banshees/vikings just rolled over him (then i came along with my 200/200 brood lord/hydra army and 22000/10000 banked resources ).Hmm, i'm not a full time zerg player and I imagine advice from the likes of indie will be more useful, but hopefully i can say something useful.
Build order aside, I'd say that what's keeping your resources high is just what you're making and the speed you're making it. A few tips would be:
1. Stay on top of spawning larva better.
This is something that comes with practice, and you develop a sense for the timing (or you just check back in your base a lot). The delays from not spawning larva often enough add up to missing units. This therefore means unused resources. The more you spawn larva, the more resources you use, keeping your counts down. This, of course, leads nicely onto the next tip..
2. Queen your expo ASAP.
Pretty much the same point as 1. The longer you don't have a queen spawning larva at your expo, the more potential units and thus expenditure you're missing. simples
. You can either build the queen at your main while your expo hatch is building (and transfer your main queen over to save time), or build it after the expo pops. When I'm playing though, I generally find myself teching to a lair while my expo is building. So I'll just build the queen at the expo as soon as it's finished. Not 100% efficient, but it's better than letting it sit there for a while.
3. Build stuff quicker
Sounds silly i suppose. Build stuff quicker => win right? Well sure, but let's take a case study from your game to clarify what i mean. You decided to go for speedling => mutalisk. Ok, sweet.
Your lair finished at around 7:14, and you had 275 minerals and 432 gas. Perfect amount to get your spire down immediately. Roll forward to 8:01 and the spire finally goes down (in the middle of a scan no less!
). In the meantime the money you had was just sitting doing nothing useful. The earlier that spire goes down once the lair's built, the earlier you get your mutas out. Thus, the earlier all of your resources disappear because they're such an expensive unit!! Cleaning up the build order by using your resources faster, and also staying on top of larva production will help keep your resource count really far down.
Now onto more general gameplay:
4. Improving the build
Ok, so you went
9 Overlord
13 Gas
13 Pool
18 Queen
18 Overlord (or something like that)
20 gas
22 Hatch
Let's start from the beginning.
9 Overlord...ok, i'd go 10 and I imagine i'd end up with about 10 more minerals with 10 overlord, no biggie though at this point.
13 Gas. Wait, what? Ok, so you're sacrificing a drone's worth of resources for early gas. That suggests early aggression.
13 Pool. There's a little debate between indie and manlove above in the thread about early pools. Personally I find that If you want to get stuff out to counter (or perform?) super-early rushes then the pool would have to go down sooner than that. Also, you should be able to hold off most non-extreme tactics with a 14/15 pool. If you just want units out a bit earlier, then remember you're against a terran. You're not more likely to get into their base and win on a 13 gas/13 pool vs 14/15 pool.
18 Queen. Oops! We've fallen into the zerg conundrum
what to do between 16-18 supply. As this is around the time when your spawning pool finishes, it's when we want to start our first queen. So I would suggest always keeping in mind that you want to get an overlord around 16 supply. This prevents having to wait around to start your queen, thus preventing problems with tip no.1 and no.2 .When I'm playing, I sometimes find that I can overlord at around 15/16 and it'll finish at the same time as my spawning pool. So I can continue building drones while my overlord's going, then immediately start my queen. Experiment with this part of your build
5. Contain and Conquer!
It's worth leaving one or two lings outside the enemy base, as well as having lings/overlords strategically placed around the map. By knowing when they're trying to expand, you can stop your terran turtler opponent from expanding while you take over the whole map with your own expansions. Then that should be an automatic win. Also It's a lot of fun because you can do stupid things like throw 200 banelings at their base
Finally,
6. Don't forget upgrades!
They'll keep you alive in the late game and they can give you an edge in the early game. Yes upgrades are not only a good way to spend unused resources, but they can be used as part of your build at any time in the game. If you notice your resources building, throw down some evo chambers and upgrade your army. (also maybe upgrade air from your spire..maybe..)
That's about all that came to mind for me, hopefully others will have better suggestions to help you
I'd suggest trying Indie's build that he posted above. I've played a bit with it today and won every game so far in part due to quite early map control (so cheers indie! )
Last edited:
Getting yourself 6 Zerlings out from an 11 pool just has Zero advantage.. by that time they have blocked their ramp, and if not, they have something to stop it, unless your playing totally braindead people.
The extra money you get while waiting for your 2nd hatch should be spent on Lair and 2nd gas. Any left over, spend on lings or drones depending on what the enemy is doing.
The install only finished at 1am, but its patched fully now and not failing, so i should be able to play some tonight and upload some replays etc for you. Also means i'll be able to check yours out!
Bare bones...
The main build order im trialling vs Protoss/Terran is:
10 - Overlord (send a scout)
15 - Gas Extractor
14 - Spawning Pool
15/16 - Get 2nd Overlord
Save 3 Larva and as soon as your spawning pool is done, pop out 3 lings and start researching speed.
Once you have 150 minerals again, Queen up
The reason why your getting speed upgrade for your zerglings so early is because it gives you the map control that you need early game so you can expand. (you'll see this in some replays.. Kar might be able to upload a few of me vs him if he still has them)
Against Protoss/Terran, you'll want to look at expanding at around 21-25 population. If you don't then your probably in for a bumpy ride. As without the economical advantage, Zerg won't be able to keep up.
Obviously you'll need to adapt this build order, because if hes rushing, you may want to get an earlier pool (13/14) and save your larva to pop out 3 lings ASAP, maybe even a spine crawler if your micro isn't up to the job.
Key things/tips to remember or at least get into the habbit of doing:
- Always keep scouts around key areas the map, your Overlords are good for this, just keep them ontop of cliffs where they can't be seen. This way you'll be able to see where the enemy is moving. Makes it much easier to surround/flank, which is probably the most important thing agaisnt Terran/Protoss. Also, Xel'Naga Towers, take them with lings.
- Never attack Terran/Protoss head on, you'll just end up with a bunch of mushy zerglings ^^
- Don't worry about sacrificing an overlord into his base once you have your economy sorted (25+ population). If you know what tech he's doing, its much easier to counter and is a total game saver.
-Always keep an eye on your minimap, you'll be able to spot incoming units/drops if you have your scouts about the map.
- Basic zerg strategy, and arguably the most effective (and only), is to Contain & Expand. You'll see this a lot in my replays quite a lot. keep him in his base as much as you can, Mutalisks are IDEAL for this due to their speed and micro capabilities. Deny him expansions, make him tech change etc. Once hes kept in there, Expand again.. rinse and repeat.
- Queens, They are soo useful, Obviously you have your Spawn Larva ability which should be used every chance possible. They also have the ability to spread creep. You want to start doing this quite early on. Your units move faster on the Creep, so you have more manouverability in defending early game and surrounding in the mid-late game.
- Upgrades! you'll NEED them, Zerg units are generally weak compared to others. vs Protoss i tend to go for +1 Carapace first. This directly counters their +1 weapons. which would (without carapace upgrade) allow Zealots to 2-shot your Zerglings. After that i tend to go for +1 ranged attack as i'll be making the transition into Roach/Hydra mid-game.
-Hotkeys hotkeys hotkeys! Get into the habbit of using them. Ideally the best way to do it is bind all your hatcheries to 1 number. and all your queens Individually. for example (this is very basic btw)
1 - Units 5- Hatcheries
2 - Units 6 -Queen
3 - Units 7 -Queen
4 - Units 8 -Queen
Always remember though, Theres no set build order to win all games. thats the beauty of Starcraft. You can't mass one unit and win. Its all about adapting to what your opponant is doing. for example, early game, if your enemy has 2 gateways pumping zealots. You'll need more lings to defend your early expansion !!
Last edited:
Soldato
- Joined
- 18 Oct 2002
- Posts
- 9,637
- Location
- Xbox Live
Well I'm playing gold level terrans
I fully agree I am playing a non-conventional build at the moment. I was previously 14 hatch/14pool or 14 pool/15 hatching up until about a week ago.
Its just something I am experimenting with, not something I am recommending. (I have not fleshed this build out enough or practiced it in enough circumstances) but its whats working for me at the moment. I guess my point is, find a build that works for you and that you are comfortable with.
If I get a game against decent opposition then I will post my build here, for you to feel free to admire or tear to pieces.
Last edited:
I have no idea what you are all on about, cheese? All I know is that I build bases, pump out troops and get my arse handed back to me by a massive force by the enemy. The bits about harassing resource collectors or scouting, I understand but still none the wiser about cheese? Cheddar? Caerphilly?
Well I'm playing gold level terrans
I fully agree I am playing a non-conventional build at the moment. I was previously 14 hatch/14pool or 14 pool/15 hatching up until about a week ago.
Its just something I am experimenting with, not something I am recommending. (I have not fleshed this build out enough or practiced it in enough circumstances) but its whats working for me at the moment. I guess my point is, find a build that works for you and that you are comfortable with.
If I get a game against decent opposition then I will post my build here, for you to feel free to admire or tear to pieces.
not denying your playing lower league Terrans, but if you had a better build order, you'd have a stronger early-mid game and you'd end up playing much better Terrans in Plat/Diamond.
Even if their cheesing, with a more solid BO, you can prevent it quite easily. thats the whole point of it ^^
Cheese strategies are builds which are used which are "non standard", that either confuse/panic your opponant.
They are often, if not always "all-in", in terms of, if they don't work, you've lost.
Examples of Cheese Strategies are Cannon rush, Proxy Barracks, Proxy Pylon, 6 Pool etc. Cheese strategies tend to be more "rush" type tactics. But can also be something like getting your "best" units out first. Like Battlecruisers, Carriers, Brood Lords.
My favourite cheese at the moment is double proxy evo chamber