**** Original Starcraft 2 Thread ****

Kamwah said:
Don't do a 1 rax FE. Do a reaper expand, much better and lets you get a second scout in your base while getting gas faster. It'll allow you to get out something to deal with the tank push.
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While this is true, he said he's trying to focus on improving his macro. 1 fax FE is the best build for this and it also fits in with Filtersc's videos and benchmarks. Up until high diamond or even masters it doesn't particularly matter what build order you do (as long as it's one which is semi-standard), the important thing is that it's executed well. You can get to masters doing a 1 rax FE in every matchup if you do it right and know how to tweak it from scouting imformation.
 
SheepBeast said:
While this is true, he said he's trying to focus on improving his macro. 1 fax FE is the best build for this and it also fits in with Filtersc's videos and benchmarks. Up until high diamond or even masters it doesn't particularly matter what build order you do (as long as it's one which is semi-standard), the important thing is that it's executed well. You can get to masters doing a 1 rax FE in every matchup if you do it right and know how to tweak it from scouting imformation.
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Wrong.

Reaper expand would allow him to work on his macro more than the 1 rax gasless fe. In one case you've got a reaper to micro and you have to macro at home and the other case your basically passive sat watching your base ;)

I'm not saying the build isn't viable, it's what most pros do. Then again most pros also pressure with the first few marines which hardly anyone in lower leagues does.

Reaper expand does only work better in TvT/P IMO.
 
Just been watching the first match of the IPL TAC3 (Acer vs Eclypsia) and it's just horrid. Elfi just showing how OP AoE is XD

Both matches vs Ecylpsia's Terrans end up with him being way behind until storm appears.
 
Kamwah said:
Wrong.

Reaper expand would allow him to work on his macro more than the 1 rax gasless fe. In one case you've got a reaper to micro and you have to macro at home and the other case your basically passive sat watching your base ;)

I'm not saying the build isn't viable, it's what most pros do. Then again most pros also pressure with the first few marines which hardly anyone in lower leagues does.

Reaper expand does only work better in TvT/P IMO.
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That's the whole point :rolleyes: he doesn't have to micro anything. Hence he can focus on macro...
 
SheepBeast said:
That's the whole point :rolleyes: he doesn't have to micro anything. Hence he can focus on macro...
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Don't you give me those rolleyes.

What's the point in approving your Macro if you can't do it while doing the simplest of control over 1 Reaper?

Any fool can macro while doing nothing but looking at his base. The real person who improves can macro while doing other things which is why a Reaper expand is much better.

If anything a 1rax gasless FE will lead you to need to micro more against a aggressive opening.
 
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Kamwah said:
Don't you give me those rolleyes.

What's the point in approving your Macro if you can't do it while doing the simplest of control over 1 Reaper?

Any fool can macro while doing nothing but looking at his base. The real person who improves can macro while doing other things which is why a Reaper expand is much better.

If anything a 1rax gasless FE will lead you to need to micro more against a aggressive opening.
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This in bold is where you make your mistake. Most people below platinum/diamond can't do this. If they can't macro well while doing nothing else, how can you expect them to macro + micro at the same time? For these people, it's better to literally focus on improving one thing at a time.

An analogy would be someone wanting to get good at singing and playing an acoustic guitar at the same time. If they can't even play guitar then they have no hope of succeeding. The correct approach is to learn the guitar part first, then practice singing, then only when both of those seem fairly easy should you combine them.
 
SheepBeast said:
This in bold is where you make your mistake. Most people below platinum/diamond can't do this. If they can't macro well while doing nothing else, how can you expect them to macro + micro at the same time? For these people, it's better to literally focus on improving one thing at a time.

An analogy would be someone wanting to get good at singing and playing an acoustic guitar at the same time. If they can't even play guitar then they have no hope of succeeding. The correct approach is to learn the guitar part first, then practice singing, then only when both of those seem fairly easy should you combine them.
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No, I'm not mistaken and you've used a terrible example as not everyone has the skill to play a guitar while the majority of players can slap a few keys on a keyboard.
The only problem I see is being able to touch-type as I know a few friends who have trouble as they have no idea where their hands are on the keyboard without looking.

You seriously underestimate players in the lower leagues and it's changed a lot since you and me were there.

If he doesn't learn from the get go to control his army (assuming he can hit all the correct buttons as he can touch-type/has learnt them) and also macro every attack he does will be an all-in. He won't be able to sustain production at home while attacking and therefore will have no reinforcements.


EDIT: Just wanted to add obviously everyone will improve using different methods but I'm not a supporter of the "Separate each mechanic then meld them later." I think it's stupid and while doing them all at once can slow progress it makes for a better understanding.
 
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Kamwah said:
No, I'm not mistaken and you've used a terrible example as not everyone has the skill to play a guitar while the majority of players can slap a few keys on a keyboard.
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It's not a terrible example at all. I have taken the same approach to the guitar + singing thing personally just as i did with SC2 and it seems to be working pretty well.

Macroing isn't just "slapping keys on a keyboard". You have to not get supply blocked, keep constant worker production, build the right production/tech structures at the correct times. know when to expand, use mules/chrono/larvae etc etc. For you and me this is easy but it's the kind of stuff that people in the lower leagues haven't got a great grasp of yet. I know this, because if they had they wouldn't be in the lower leagues. As I've said before you can get to platinum just a-moving on the minimap if you macro well. If you don't believe me then derank one of your accounts and try it.

If playing SC2 is "slapping keys on a keyboard" then playing guitar is "plucking strings and holding frets". Sure it's easy and any idiot can do it... but getting a meaningful result from it, that's where the skill is.


You seriously underestimate players in the lower leagues and it's changed a lot since you and me were there.

If he doesn't learn from the get go to control his army (assuming he can hit all the correct buttons as he can touch-type/has learnt them) and also macro every attack he does will be an all-in. He won't be able to sustain production at home while attacking and therefore will have no reinforcements.

EDIT: Just wanted to add obviously everyone will improve using different methods but I'm not a supporter of the "Separate each mechanic then meld them later." I think it's stupid and while doing them all at once can slow progress it makes for a better understanding.
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I don't doubt the lower leagues are a lot harder now than they were a year or two ago, but while they can macro better this doesn't mean they can macro well. They are still bad. Hell, I'm terrible and screw up my macro all the time and I'm in high dia so I know people lower than me will generally be worse.

In response to your edit - fair enough, it's a matter of opinion and we happen to disagree as usual :) but in my experience anything which is impossible to pick up easily, is best broken down into smaller chunks then built up. Works best for me but maybe you are different.
 
ok first games back last night.

everything was going well in the first tvt until i looked at my money and saw £1.5k in the bank! woops.

luckily opponent wasn't up to much. our armies attacked at the same time having wandered past eachother. base trade but i had expanded away and he hadn't so it was an easy mop up.

second game against toss i went marine heavy and fought off an early stalker attack. knowing he would come back with collossi i reactored a couple of starports and pumped out some vikings. unfortunately when he attacked my vikings were too far away and while they took out all his collossi he had already wiped out my marine force.

pretty fun though and i was surprised how well it went considering i hadn't played in 8 months.
 
As a lower level player i would say it's easy enough to learn to build scv's, supply, buildings and units. you can get to the stage quite quickly where you are good at this. the problem is that as soon as an attack happens or you want to move out all of it goes out the window.

i don't even mean a full engagement. any sort of harrass can have a major impact on a low level player. this is why i hate mutas for example. i can easily deal with the attack and scare them off but once it's done i have to reset my brain to getting back to the economy.

i think that's the big hurdle between lower and higher level.
 
Yeah you're right that it's the multitasking that lower league players struggle with. The thing is though, that if your macro and decision making is good enough you don't really need to do much if any multitasking. For example you should know that in a TvZ where you haven't done any damage to the zerg, if they're going mutalisks they should turn up at your base around 11mins (maybe 4-6 mutas). Add a minute or two to that if you managed to get some damage/harassment done. Therefore if you scout a spire with a scan around 8-9mins you should throw down some turrets at the 10min mark. 1 or 2 per mineral line will completely shut the mutalisks down until they build a big enough ball. They wont have enough gas for this for quite a while, so you should just get some M&Ms (marauders to tank banelings) and "go ****ing kill him" as day9 would say.

This is what I mean: with good macro and decision making there is no need to panic because the turrets will already be there to fend off the mutas. Honestly if you work on your macro, and learn what some common timings are and when you should scan/scout and how to react, you can win games without much/any microing at all.
 
Hehehhe your arguing does amuse me greatly!

Macro is hard, i have had this game since release and while i have moved onto other games and had months without playing i have still probably played over 1000 ranked matches (based on an average 50% win rate).

And yet i still struggle to get 50 scv's at 10 minutes as filtersc demands!

As feedtheram says if this was a nice city building game i would do ok with my macro but as with my initial problem i am being attacked at 8 minutes which is before my extra income really kicks in to crush someone who is 1 basing.

Currently i try to leave a marine in their natural / outside their base to see when they expand / move out but often if they kill this marine i am in the dark as to their movements until all of a sudden their are tanks outside my main using a viking to siege my buildings.

I am considering ditching tanks entirely in TvT and going for an aggressive MMM instead.. this would hopefully allow me to have a more mobile force for rushing out to engage their tanks before they reach my base and have something a bit better at tank killing.

Oh and the problem with the 10 minute muta is not them killing your scv's but sniping other things, sure 2 turrets will keep them away from your scv's but whats defending your tech lab or the supply depot you have scattered around your base to give vision? When they do this you have to pull back your marines.. and then you play chase the muta for the rest of the game... These days i leave a thor in my main and it is a complete waste of a good unit if they then dont harras you
 
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Thanks Jammy ;) I try my best lol.

Macro is hard and I agree but I'm a supporter of throwing people in the deep end because your opponent isnt going to wait for you to macro through your production facilities and bases while he's attacking you.

Just leave a marine behind their naturals mineral line that way it won't attack but you'll see the expand and always try to keep the xel'naga.

I wouldn't ditch tanks tbh, theres a reason you don't see MMM in TvT and it's just because marauders are useless. Against anyone who half knows what he's doing means you'll have to engage at a really bad time for them to make a difference.
Although I'm unsure of your level, if it's low'ish you could probably get away with it if you shark the middle and catch him unseiged.

If you're having trouble why not try mech TvT? That's what I use and it's just a stronger style than marine+tank.
 
DJammyRasta said:
Currently i try to leave a marine in their natural / outside their base to see when they expand / move out but often if they kill this marine i am in the dark as to their movements until all of a sudden their are tanks outside my main using a viking to siege my buildings.

I am considering ditching tanks entirely in TvT and going for an aggressive MMM instead.. this would hopefully allow me to have a more mobile force for rushing out to engage their tanks before they reach my base and have something a bit better at tank killing.
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Yeah, in TvT if you let them siege up outside you natural it's most often gg. You need to keep an eye on the xelnaga towers. If you see him send a marine, pull yours away and send him back with a friend. The enemy will no doubt come 30secs later with several marines, and it's basically a back-and-forth game.

MMM can work pretty well if you do lots of drops etc and don't let them get a critical mass of tanks. If there are just 2-3 tanks you can stim in and focus them down and win the engagement, but once there are more than 5 you can't do ****. Pure bio is best early game and gets progressively worse.

Kamwah said:
Come on Sheep.

Turrets don't stop mutas and M+M is just asking to be raped by banelings XD
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Of course turrets stop mutas. MM doesn't get raped by banelings if your control is good.
 
DJammyRasta said:
I am considering ditching tanks entirely in TvT and going for an aggressive MMM instead.. this would hopefully allow me to have a more mobile force for rushing out to engage their tanks before they reach my base and have something a bit better at tank killing.
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Not sure if it still works but i used to do the iechoic build in TvT as a fun alternative to tank terran. It's arguably a bit all-iny but if you do it right it's very hard to defend.

The premise was getting out early blu flame followed by cloaked banshee. It's a really fun build for TvT. Day9 did a daily on it.
 
SheepBeast said:
Yeah, in TvT if you let them siege up outside you natural it's most often gg. You need to keep an eye on the xelnaga towers. If you see him send a marine, pull yours away and send him back with a friend. The enemy will no doubt come 30secs later with several marines, and it's basically a back-and-forth game.

MMM can work pretty well if you do lots of drops etc and don't let them get a critical mass of tanks. If there are just 2-3 tanks you can stim in and focus them down and win the engagement, but once there are more than 5 you can't do ****. Pure bio is best early game and gets progressively worse.



Of course turrets stop mutas. MM doesn't get raped by banelings if your control is good.
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We're talking about a guy who can't handle being seiged upon (no offence jammy) he can't micro that well to stop baneling rape.

Turrets don't stop mutas. They merely stall.

feedtheram said:
Not sure if it still works but i used to do the iechoic build in TvT as a fun alternative to tank terran. It's arguably a bit all-iny but if you do it right it's very hard to defend.

The premise was getting out early blu flame followed by cloaked banshee. It's a really fun build for TvT. Day9 did a daily on it.
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There are plenty of good openers in TvT. Hellion reaper is probably my absolute favourite and proxy marauders with concussive is my fav cheese XD
 
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