I really hope this is what happens - I'll be in line for 15 years of one heck of a lot of holiday pay.
Overtime counting towards holidays
- Thread starter Neodite
- Start date
I really hope this is what happens - I'll be in line for 15 years of one heck of a lot of holiday pay.
I really hope this is what happens - I'll be in line for 15 years of one heck of a lot of holiday pay.
You need to be careful what you wish for.
If companies have a huge amount of backpay then they simply wont be able to afford. Instead they will just declare themselves bankrupt, lay off all the stuff and move on to greener pasture. Potentially they will re start a new company holding onto the key contacts and trying to re-hire some old staff.
Other companies will have to lay off large parts of the workforce to cope.
Either way, it isn't good for the public when such things are done.
About time this was done. It was a loophole to reduce the costs of paid holiday time.
Have a reduced hours contract but offer employees regular overtime, which in some situations can be almost expected.
Think of the extreme scenario. Does someone who regularly does hours on a zero hour contracts deserve no paid holiday?
Have a reduced hours contract but offer employees regular overtime, which in some situations can be almost expected.
Think of the extreme scenario. Does someone who regularly does hours on a zero hour contracts deserve no paid holiday?
In the BBC link a case study sums it up
How can you just curtail overtime if the work needs to be done? Either the employer will have to offer longer hours contracts, pay overtime, or hire someone else.
No loophole of reducing holiday pay left. All 3 will be equal.
What's worse here is that the 1.5 times regular pay for overtime reduces holiday pay further under existing arrangement because it's basically artificially lowering the pay of the regular pay from which paid holiday is based on.
How can you just curtail overtime if the work needs to be done? Either the employer will have to offer longer hours contracts, pay overtime, or hire someone else.
No loophole of reducing holiday pay left. All 3 will be equal.
What's worse here is that the 1.5 times regular pay for overtime reduces holiday pay further under existing arrangement because it's basically artificially lowering the pay of the regular pay from which paid holiday is based on.
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Associate
When I used to work for a well known transport company I had what we called "P60 Holiday & Sick Pay".
Basically, if your basic pay was say £18k a year and you worked overtime and your P60 came in at a higher rate like £26k - Your holiday pay instead of being £69.23 a day was £100.
(Un)fortunately, this applied to sick pay also. The amount of people who took 26 weeks off every other year on the 'sick' was unbelievable. It amazed me how people exploited this, it was dirty beyond belief.
The companys' solution to this was to make those on the 'better' contract working conditions intolerable. It worked on me very well...
muon - You'd be surprised at how far companies are willing to go to screw you over.
They basically cut our department to shreds, stopped over-time and then 'disciplined' people for not getting their job done, even if everyone from the bottom to middle management told them it wouldn't work without extra staff or overtime. We got a set of new 'blue chip' contracts - a department of 3 people when we were already struggling with what we had.
I ended up doing 70+ hour weeks, sometimes with only 8 hours between Week 1 & Week 2. Now they have 10 people in this department doing the same thing we were doing with 3 and they STILL are failing. The main office in England found out I left (the then manager didn't even tell customers I wasn't the contract contact anymore and the complaint escalated) and launched an investigation and 8 people got sacked over the head of it.
ANYWAY - It is a really nice reward for putting effort into the job, it just gets ruined by those taking the mick out of it.
Sorry for the wall of text, but I loved that job and haven't really spoken about what went on then - Got annoyed
Basically, if your basic pay was say £18k a year and you worked overtime and your P60 came in at a higher rate like £26k - Your holiday pay instead of being £69.23 a day was £100.
(Un)fortunately, this applied to sick pay also. The amount of people who took 26 weeks off every other year on the 'sick' was unbelievable. It amazed me how people exploited this, it was dirty beyond belief.
The companys' solution to this was to make those on the 'better' contract working conditions intolerable. It worked on me very well...
muon - You'd be surprised at how far companies are willing to go to screw you over.
They basically cut our department to shreds, stopped over-time and then 'disciplined' people for not getting their job done, even if everyone from the bottom to middle management told them it wouldn't work without extra staff or overtime. We got a set of new 'blue chip' contracts - a department of 3 people when we were already struggling with what we had.
I ended up doing 70+ hour weeks, sometimes with only 8 hours between Week 1 & Week 2. Now they have 10 people in this department doing the same thing we were doing with 3 and they STILL are failing. The main office in England found out I left (the then manager didn't even tell customers I wasn't the contract contact anymore and the complaint escalated) and launched an investigation and 8 people got sacked over the head of it.
ANYWAY - It is a really nice reward for putting effort into the job, it just gets ruined by those taking the mick out of it.
Sorry for the wall of text, but I loved that job and haven't really spoken about what went on then - Got annoyed
Soldato
The way I understand current EU law regarding Holiday Pay is that it should be calculated to be at your normal rate of renumeration, regardless of how this is made up (commission, overtime, bonuses etc.), and is calculated as an average of the previous 12 weeks.
The important wording here is that it's your normal rate of renumeration, i.e. it's a constitutes a regular part of your take home pay, rather then just being a one off bonus for instance or being asked to work occasional overtime etc.
Todays news is nothing more then a clarification of existing EU law. The fact that many businesses mis-interpreted the law is irrelevant (maybe some chose to?) as, I'm sure you have heard the expression, "ignorance in no defence in the eyes of the law".
This happens to be a topic on which I am well versed as I have been envolved in a landmark case with the European Court to clarify the position of Commission forming part of Holiday pay.
Further details here:
http://www.ier.org.uk/blog/lock-v-british-gas
The important wording here is that it's your normal rate of renumeration, i.e. it's a constitutes a regular part of your take home pay, rather then just being a one off bonus for instance or being asked to work occasional overtime etc.
Todays news is nothing more then a clarification of existing EU law. The fact that many businesses mis-interpreted the law is irrelevant (maybe some chose to?) as, I'm sure you have heard the expression, "ignorance in no defence in the eyes of the law".
This happens to be a topic on which I am well versed as I have been envolved in a landmark case with the European Court to clarify the position of Commission forming part of Holiday pay.
Further details here:
http://www.ier.org.uk/blog/lock-v-british-gas
Soldato
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- 7 Aug 2004
- Posts
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Can someone explain to me why ANYONE would work unpaid overtime ? I never have and never will, thankfully I work for myself now so I get out the effort I put in.
As for working for someone else, I used to for years, and as soon as the time was up for what I was getting paid I was off (iv i needed 10 mins extra to finish something i would have, but it that would run over something like that, hell no)
I honestly don't get it, giving up precious life minutes for someone else (that isnt a charity) and not getting compensated.........makes no sense, if people are expected to work free OT in their job then why dont they change the chuffing contracts to say how many hours are needed for a job, MAKES NO SENSE.
Sure people will to try and get a promotion or something........thats the only reason I can think of, even then its selling yourself out.
As for working for someone else, I used to for years, and as soon as the time was up for what I was getting paid I was off (iv i needed 10 mins extra to finish something i would have, but it that would run over something like that, hell no)
I honestly don't get it, giving up precious life minutes for someone else (that isnt a charity) and not getting compensated.........makes no sense, if people are expected to work free OT in their job then why dont they change the chuffing contracts to say how many hours are needed for a job, MAKES NO SENSE.
Sure people will to try and get a promotion or something........thats the only reason I can think of, even then its selling yourself out.
presumably the govt will pass legislation limiting how far this can be backdated and going forward employers will lessen the payments for overtime in order to fund the additional holiday pay
if you're already getting paid at a higher rate for overtime then I don't see how you can complain too much
hopefully the guys on less than a full week of contracted hours who essentially do a full week on a regular basis at normal rate will benefit and get their rightful holiday pay - but it isn't likely going to be a bonanza for everyone who's done a bit of overtime
if you're already getting paid at a higher rate for overtime then I don't see how you can complain too much
hopefully the guys on less than a full week of contracted hours who essentially do a full week on a regular basis at normal rate will benefit and get their rightful holiday pay - but it isn't likely going to be a bonanza for everyone who's done a bit of overtime
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Soldato
our company has done a 12 week holiday average for years so nothing new for us.
Think now we do it based on money earned in previous 6 weeks divided by contracted hours - his means that some people have double the wage rate for holiday pay!! lol
Think now we do it based on money earned in previous 6 weeks divided by contracted hours - his means that some people have double the wage rate for holiday pay!! lol
Soldato
If there isn't an appeal outside of the EAT system I will be extremely surprised, the sums involved could be enormous.
Two sides to this, employers that employ staff on, for example, 20 hour contracts with the reality being that you are flexible, ie you work more. It is less expensive to employ one person on a 20 hour contract and have them work 40 hours than it is to employ two people and have them only work 20 hours each. In part because of the savings when it comes to annual leave. It is easy to state that overtime is not compulsory in these circumstances and just get rid of people who don't do any before their employment protections kick in.
The other side is an employee in the above circumstances will not often be able to cope financially on their contracted 20 hours and take any 'voluntary' overtime they can to improve their earnings, they are then stuck when they take annual leave or they risk getting the push before their employment protections kick in for not pulling their weight.
Two sides to this, employers that employ staff on, for example, 20 hour contracts with the reality being that you are flexible, ie you work more. It is less expensive to employ one person on a 20 hour contract and have them work 40 hours than it is to employ two people and have them only work 20 hours each. In part because of the savings when it comes to annual leave. It is easy to state that overtime is not compulsory in these circumstances and just get rid of people who don't do any before their employment protections kick in.
The other side is an employee in the above circumstances will not often be able to cope financially on their contracted 20 hours and take any 'voluntary' overtime they can to improve their earnings, they are then stuck when they take annual leave or they risk getting the push before their employment protections kick in for not pulling their weight.
I don't get this?
Basically I have on call retainer of 315 per week of on call I do, plus 1.5 hours per hour for any hours I work, and double time if its after 10pm.
How will this effect me? Are they on about us being paid in holidays instead?
What is all this stuff about companies likely to curtain overtime? I don't mind overtime, its more income
I would much rather that then paid holidays, if I do overtime overnight i can either take half day off the following day, or if its all overnight usually a full day off and get the overtime
Basically I have on call retainer of 315 per week of on call I do, plus 1.5 hours per hour for any hours I work, and double time if its after 10pm.
How will this effect me? Are they on about us being paid in holidays instead?
What is all this stuff about companies likely to curtain overtime? I don't mind overtime, its more income
I would much rather that then paid holidays, if I do overtime overnight i can either take half day off the following day, or if its all overnight usually a full day off and get the overtime
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Soldato
I thought that 'TOIL' (time off in lieu) was a word that only my workplace used
That's because my previous workplace used 'TIL' and so on. But yes, I agree with you. We build up flex and have it as time off later. I've not done this myself, but some of my colleagues have managed to have full days off work because of the amount of flex they've built up.So this should be something good for me? I do roughly 50-80 hours paid OT a month, so I should (or would) gain an extra 10 or so days (8 hour day) holiday per year? Or is the calculated extras transferable as extra money for the days leave I currently get?
Soldato
If overtime makes up part of your pay, on a regular basis, then you have the right to be paid your annual leave including the additional money you would normally receive for the extra hours worked. Rather than just being paid at your basic rate.
This answered my question above, I had to make assumptions as I couldn't (now can) get the bbc link to work
And to illustrate, if you're paid £500 weekly at a basic rate and you average £150 a week overtime on top as part of "normal" duties, then when you take a weeks holiday you get paid £650 not £500.
You end up with more pay, not time.
Caporegime
I do roughly 60-80 hours extra a month but I'm not entitled to overtime or time off, I do get to keep my job though. I assume this won't have any effect on me? 
Because in many fields it is expected and that leaves a simple choice: work the hours expected without extra pay or be unemployed.