Mark driving exactly the same car finishes 6th and Seb 1st with, I believe the same amount of retirements etc (going from memory). Surely that alone says Seb is a fast driver?
Paddy Lowe to Mercedes?
- Thread starter Danthus
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Mark driving exactly the same car finishes 6th and Seb 1st with, I believe the same amount of retirements etc (going from memory). Surely that alone says Seb is a fast driver?
Soldato
Well obviously not, your neck would flop about all over the place for a start
I just don't think Vettel has been tested enough properly, yet.
Soldato
I think you're living in a dream world of your own.
The 2013 car was built when Lewis was there and as Jenson said last year at testing
"I've got the best out of the car I can, now it's up to Lewis to get the speed out of it" which he did
And as for the 2013 WDC it will be Alonso or Vimto..unless merc have a good car this year. Won't be long now
1st race perez to take out Button..you heard it here first
EDIT
2010 Lewis Hamilton(240pts) vs Jenson Button(214pts) Button lost
2011 Lewis Hamilton(227pts) vs Jenson Button(270pts) Hamiltons worse season in his life time including carts ect
2012 Lewis Hamilton(190pts) vs Jenson Button(188pts) Lewis won
Qualifying
Faster qualifying time: Hamilton 44 / Button 14
Poles: Hamilton 9 / Button 1
Front rows: Hamilton: 23 / Button 9
Races
Wins: Hamilton 10 / Button 8
Podiums: Hamilton 22 / Button 25
Points finishes: Hamilton 45 / Button 47
DNFs: Hamilton 13 / Button 8
Best race result (inc DNFs): Hamilton 32 / Button 26
Ahead in two-car finish: Hamilton 24 / Button 13
Need I go one
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NO he's right. Button has been absolutely dreadful on saturdays to the point he would need 0.5 of a second on Alonso and or Vettel to stand a hope of beating them over a season for the title.
Button will continue to win a race or three in a season when the cars just so for a race but without a car advantage he doesn't stand a hope in hell of winning the title again. Without car failures this year he still wouldn't have stood a hope in hell. The same is not true of his former team mate.
Now no one can call me a Button hater, I was one of the very few banging his drum prior to his 2009 title. Yet it's pretty clear to see he's not on the same level as Alonso or Hamilton. You cannot win a title from consistent 5th 6th or worse places with the amount of talent Jenson has.
It's absolutely laughable to say JB beat Hamilton over 3 years. Only a complete blinkered fool will think JB was even in the same ball park as Hamilton last year. The same ones that are happy to chalk up every racing incident as Hamiltons fault. Just because the points gap wasn't huge last year doesn't point any less to the complete domination Lewis had over his team mate. I said in 2011 it took Lewis worst season ever for JB to get a look in, despite JB having his best ever season performance wise.
Button is a damn nice guy and for the corporate grey of Mclaren an almost perfect driver, but they will see this year how much they needed a driver like hamilton when Button is locking out the 3rd row week after week. Yeah he will convert 3 of those in a season, but how the hell will that bother Alonso and Vettel?
We have already seen Button needs 0.5 or more to regularly get pole and as soon as that dissapeared in 09 he almost lost the title due to a poor run on saturdays. If Mclaren deliver a car of the exact same pace as a Ferrari or Red Bull then Button will not be enough to beat them.
I think they are in trouble for 2013.
I never said Seb wasnt a fast driver, but I think a number of the top drivers could get just as much out of that car (over a season) as Seb given the same situation.
I think you are being harsh on Mark, yes last season wasnt his greatest but he has also been known to beat Seb with inferior / less up to date parts as well
deuse - well done for compiliing stats that are completely meaningless , it must have taken you ages
Why do you think Politicians use stats all the time - because the same numbers can be used to mean completely different things.
Hamilton gets more wins (which have a reasonable points credit vs any other position) yet JB beats him on points - that could just as easily go to show that LH is terrible , in comparison, to just getting as many points as possible.
LH also had more retirements of his own making than JB , but lets gloss over that because its not fair to Lewis
What does "best race result (incl DNF)" actually mean? Talk about clutching at straws to try and get your point across
Just face it over the three years they were together, the only time LH beat JB in the standings at the end of the season by any considerable margin was their first season - when JB arrived very last minute, LH had already been in the team for several years and everyone thought he was "the golden child of F1".
Put it another way - even in a bad season (with comparable retirements) JB still came within 2 points of LH in the final standings - given the number of laps/ time on the race track thats a tiny margin of error
I have never said otherwise that JB has to improve qualifying. However to be that close to Lewis (if not beating him) for the last two seasons together must mean ON AVERAGE he is better at getting the points on the board , and he improves massively on race day (where the points are actually counted).
Of course qualifying better would help him, Ive never disputed that, but its also possible that if JB had qualified better, Grosjean might well have taken him out as well given the amount of 1st lap incidents caused. Swings and roudabouts
Well with fans like you, he wouldnt need enemies thats for sure.
Even though they had the same amount of retirments, you seem to think its JB's fault that Hamilton didnt score more - thats your "blinkered fool". Its championship numbers that pays the wages, not LH's potential to score more points.
Yeah Im sure McLaren will miss LH tweeting setup information and the like
Stop twisting facts - IF JB had lost the title in 09 it would have been because Brawn didnt have any funds to develop the car for the last 4-5 months of the season, and all the rival teams improved dramatically.
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You are the one twisting the facts, no matter how many times it gets posted how many points Lewis lost last season compared to Button you ignore it and repeat the same old rubbish about the same amount of retirements.
It means nothing. If JB had retired from the lead 10 times last year and LH had retired from 8th 10 times last year I'm sure you would still be banging on about them having the same amount of retirements......
It's about points lost not number of failures.
If JB had lost the title in 2009 it would have been because Brawn couldn't develope the car to maintain car superiority yes of course, I agree. As soon as his car wasn't much faster than the rest his grid slots dried up. The fact is he needs a car much better than the rest to consistently get on the front row.
I look forward to you proving me wrong when he wins a title next year with consistent 3rd row starts......
And Button didn't join Mclaren at the very last minute, he agreed to join in November 2009.
Why because I'm not some blinkered idiot that thinks everything their hero does makes them the bestest ever like some 7 year old?
Why does that not apply to your following of Manu in the football forum then, where you and the rest of them spend half your lives moaning about the team and how Ferguson is an idiot?
With fans like that.....
Why the double standards with F1 compared to Football. Oh yeah because it suits.
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It will be interesting to see how much money Mercedes have thrown at this year, with recruitment's. I still see them as another BMW, should have stayed as an engine supplier instead of getting delusions of grandeur.
I still think they will pull the plug like BMW did and decide it isn't worth the money. I'm hoping they surprise me next year and actually build a challenger.
I still think they will pull the plug like BMW did and decide it isn't worth the money. I'm hoping they surprise me next year and actually build a challenger.
Associate
So in the last few years McLaren have had a $100m fine. Replaced one of the most influential and successful team principals in F1 history and pretty much lost all of their most senior technical staff and designers. I dont know how they keep themselves in the top three teams bracket!
Anyone care to comment on the chances of Brawn going to McLaren alongside Whitmarsh or will hell freeze over before that happens? I suspect the latter!
P.S. Who's feeding all this info to Eddie Jordan by the way? He might be an irritating little man sometimes but he gets it right a lot of the time too.
Oh and another thing - Lewis Hamilton thought he was going to a team that had the most successful team principal (EDIT, corrected: Tech Director, not principal) of all time at the helm...I wonder what his thoughts are now?
Anyone care to comment on the chances of Brawn going to McLaren alongside Whitmarsh or will hell freeze over before that happens? I suspect the latter!
P.S. Who's feeding all this info to Eddie Jordan by the way? He might be an irritating little man sometimes but he gets it right a lot of the time too.
Oh and another thing - Lewis Hamilton thought he was going to a team that had the most successful team principal (EDIT, corrected: Tech Director, not principal) of all time at the helm...I wonder what his thoughts are now?
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^^ Brawn's not been kicked out yet has he?
Equally, it is possible that Paddy knew something already and spoke to Lewis and that was the point he decided to switch.
In any case, with such changes like this, I find it very hard to imagine that Lewis (or his team) didn't know anything about them. Especially given the incestuous nature of the sport.
Equally, it is possible that Paddy knew something already and spoke to Lewis and that was the point he decided to switch.
In any case, with such changes like this, I find it very hard to imagine that Lewis (or his team) didn't know anything about them. Especially given the incestuous nature of the sport.
No its about points on the board
Everything else is guess work
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"wasnt much faster" is very accurate - well done
Prove it was still faster than the McLaren / Ferrari etc at the end of that season (or even 3/4 of the way through it for that matter). From everything Ive read Brawn lost more (ie was slower) in respect to the top cars well before the end of the season.
You dont NEED to be on the front row to win races, yes its even very helpful but Im sure just as many races have been lost from the front by bad tactics / weather etc etc than
I seem to recall there being cars in the past better at qualifying than pure race pace (the Lotus from last year could be thought of as such), who says the McLaren didnt have design elements to get the best out of Lewis's 1 lap pace.....
So the car wasnt already designed then? I very much doubt that
In essence yes Nov is last minute in regards to major car factors, JB had to do muddle through that first season (especialy the first few months) with a car based solely around Lewis
You are the one taking everything to extremes - feeling childish all of a sudden?
Ive stated JB's weaknesses, but its also apparent some including you dont want to give him the credit he deserves (or for that matter are just as blindly ignoring LH's mistakes in and out of the car)
Bookmarked for 2013.
I agree, but you do need to be much more consistent than that him to win titles. I'm not even discussing race wins, I'm talking about a title challenge. I suppose that's the difference between winning 2 or 3 races per year and a world champion. 2 of the 3 years together Lewis was in the hunt for the title while JB wasn't.
Muddle through the season? WTF. So any driver who hasn't had a year under his belt is muddling through the season? I bet the excuse for 2013 will be the car was designed for Lewis and he left so he's muddling through 2013. Good job other top line drivers don't have a muddling year isn't it.
Yeah I'm sure a team as conservative as Mclaren have become built a car based on Lewis one lap race pace.
Oh well atleast Perez will make him look good again
Is he the most successful? Wasn't Todt team priniciple at Ferrari and I bet Williams has won more titles as team principle than Brawn? I thought Brawn was technical director at Ferrari?
Associate
You're quite right. I should have written Tech. Dir.
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Soldato
Barking mad.
Being an athlete involves psychological and physical skill.
Saying "he didn't have his head screwed on" is so pathetic I can't begin to contemplate bothering about replying with anything substantial.
And again, the points DON'T lie. Regarding DNFs / Team Eff ups / I think you'll find that
A) You make your own luck in this world - hell, look at Vettel in Brazil to win the WDC from the back of the pack with that car. If that wasn't luck then God help me - I don't know what is.
And what did he do with that luck? Correct. Went into the elite club which only two other drivers have managed to do.
B) Jenson had just as many DNFs/ Team **** ups throughout the last three years as Lewis.
The only reason everyone harps on about Lewis getting all the bad luck is because he's a petulant little child who throws the toys out of the pram, or in other cases has to go posting sensitive team telemetry data to show why he wasn't as quick... or post on twitter about how his friend's, who were never on his twitter page, suddenly deserted him.
Going to Mercedes was the stupidest thing he's ever done and I'll be amazed if I don't actually see him cry post race next year.
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