Pakistani couple murder daughter after refusing forced marriage.

mmj_uk said:
The acts carried out by the parents are far more shameful than anything the girl did. I'd like to know the wider British Muslims' attitude towards it because if a large portion support what the parents did then it's a real problem in terms of future integration, the girl was basically abused and ultimately killed for wanting to adopt her country of births' culture.
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Well there is some level of support as it isn’t the only case and the whole point was to preserve their families “honour” within that community. It is common enough within Pakistan and the authorities there are quite lenient, even complicit or willing to turn away when it happens.

Of course the sibling fortunately did come forwards, after some time, unfortunately didn’t try to actually stop it or raise the alarm/call 999 when it happened though. Likewise another family friends had letters etc... but didn’t reveal them until after the sibling came forwards. This sort of abuse of daughters is certainly something that people in that community can and will attempt to keep quiet about albeit if they’ve actually gone as far as to kill then it is much harder to cover up.

General abuse, forced marriage of cousins etc... that can go on without consequence. Ditto to say FGM in other communities such as Somalian etc...
 
mmj_uk said:
As G-MAN2004 highlights it prodominently affects the Muslim community so whether you can directly attribute it to Islam or not those are the people most involved in such behaviour. It's not really helpful to just say "nothing to do with Islam" and then sit on your hands and that's a large part of the reason why authorities are failing to deal with serious problems like honour killings, forced marriages and child sexual exploitation.
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Prove causation then because until then it’s correlation, I’m of the mindset that it is coincidental to the cultures involved rather than provoked by the institution of Islam.

Anything else is prejudice.
 
mmj_uk said:
As G-MAN2004 highlights it prodominently affects the Muslim community so whether you can directly attribute it to Islam or not those are the people most involved in such behaviour. It's not really helpful to just say "nothing to do with Islam" and then sit on your hands and that's a large part of the reason why authorities are failing to deal with serious problems like honour killings, forced marriages and child sexual exploitation.
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Well its factual because you know if you picked up the Quran or Read Reliable Hadith it doesn't support any of this.....

It's a bit like saying "what do atheists think of school gun deaths?" America is predominantly atheist. Therefore it's an atheist problem. It's not really helpful to just say "it's not an atheist problem".
 
StriderX said:
Prove causation then because until then it’s correlation, I’m of the mindset that it is coincidental to the cultures involved rather than provoked by the institution of Islam.

Anything else is prejudice.
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Got to agree here. Treating children as an asset to be married off for advantage pre-dates Islam's existence and if you go back into western christian culture long enough you will also find it wasn't exactly unusual either.
 
peterwalkley said:
Got to agree here. Treating children as an asset to be married off for advantage pre-dates Islam's existence and if you go back into western christian culture long enough you will also find it wasn't exactly unusual either.
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Indeed it was tribal standing, which we sort of left behind, we can choose to marry into wealth nowadays, it may be functional rather than emotional but still.

Though the cousin marriage thing confuses me, I assume it’s so the tribe isn’t shamed for having middle aged ‘gentlemen’ lacking their token wives. Which is even more disgraceful, hopefully it moves past it at some point.

So many things happened along the silk corridor that it’s difficult to lay reasoning at it, like was it the mongols, the caliphate that drove through India, could it even be partly Greek, or did it survive all those things regardless, it’s far too easy to just go ‘Hurr islam’, I guess I was a bit too absolute in it not being islam, but there are so many cultures with the same values...
 
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Buddy said:
Well its factual because you know if you picked up the Quran or Read Reliable Hadith it doesn't support any of this.....

It's a bit like saying "what do atheists think of school gun deaths?" America is predominantly atheist. Therefore it's an atheist problem. It's not really helpful to just say "it's not an atheist problem".
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No it isn't.
 
Buddy said:
Well its factual because you know if you picked up the Quran or Read Reliable Hadith it doesn't support any of this.....
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Your statement is factually inaccurate. The following sura deals with women's modesty you will note that it makes reference to 'male servants void of sexual desires' that's a polite way of saying a eunuch (castrated) slave. It would be haram for a woman to not obey these instructions and Islam, like the other Abrahamic religions, isn't shy at indicating that extreme punishments are fitting for people who transgress religious instructions.

The quaran sura 24 verse 31 said:
”And say unto the believing women that they cast down their gaze and guard their private parts, and they display not their “Zinat” (adornment) except what becomes apparent of it; and they draw their “Khumur” (head covers) over their “Juyub” (neck-slits); and they display not their “Zinat” except to their husbands, or their fathers, or the father of their husbands, or their brothers, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brother's sons, or their sister's sons, or their women or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants void of sexual desires, or the children who have not yet attained the knowledge of women's secrets (or nakedness), and they should not strike their feet so that what they hide of their “Zinat” becomes known; and turn you all unto Allah, O you believers, so that you may be successful.”
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Caracus2k said:
Your statement is factually inaccurate. The following sura deals with women's modesty you will note that it makes reference to 'male servants void of sexual desires' that's a polite way of saying a eunuch (castrated) slave. It would be haram for a woman to not obey these instructions and Islam, like the other Abrahamic religions, isn't shy at indicating that extreme punishments are fitting for people who transgress religious instructions.
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Factually incorrect?

What has your hallowed passage got to do with forced marriage?

It may imply other things, certainly not pertinent to this thread.
 
StriderX said:
Factually incorrect?

What has your hallowed passage got to do with forced marriage?

It may imply other things, certainly not pertinent to this thread.
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The reporting on this incident suggested the reason for the final incident that preceded her parents stuffing a bag down her throat causing her to urinate herself and suffocate to death was her wearing a short sleeved top so religious verses on 'modesty' are rather relevant I would suggest.
 
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That poor poor girl. The utter terror and fear she must have experienced in the last few moments of her life must have been horrendous. Makes me sick to the pit of my stomach thinking about it.

On a side note can we try and not turn this thread into an argument about who knows the most/least about religion.
 
Caracus2k said:
Your statement is factually inaccurate. The following sura deals with women's modesty you will note that it makes reference to 'male servants void of sexual desires' that's a polite way of saying a eunuch (castrated) slave. It would be haram for a woman to not obey these instructions and Islam, like the other Abrahamic religions, isn't shy at indicating that extreme punishments are fitting for people who transgress religious instructions.
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Oh yes I forget we have Quran experts on here. You know this is in reference modesty in general. The 5 senses and sinning.

I must have missed the part where it says you therefore go kill your daughter.
 
G-MAN2004 said:
Probably because of this.
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Indeed, though it isn't something exclusive to Islam it is rather silly to claim that this culture that has perpetuated in certain parts of the world is nothing to do with Islam. Given the belief in certain modesty requirements, penalties for things like adultery etc.. it isn't too surprising that some conservative followers of Islam could see honour killings as being consistent with their values. It is also Islamic principles that have helped facilitate honour killings in Pakistan without legal consequences, in particular the family of the victim can forgive the perpetrators but given that plenty of marriages involves families with close ties, cousins etc.. then this simply means the perpetrators can get off scot free as they're essentially from the same family and have often agreed on the killing between themselves.

Saudi is another place where they're prevalent, including even within the Royal family. The difference in values is quite staggering at times, for example see this cleric's reaction to an honour killing after a woman was beaten and shot when caught talking to a man via Facebook:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1583420/Saudi-woman-killed-for-chatting-on-Facebook.html

The case was reported on a Saudi Arabian news site as an example of the "strife" the social networking site is causing in the Islamic nation.

Saudi preacher Ali al-Maliki has emerged as the leading critic of Facebook, claiming the network is corrupting the youth of the nation.

"Facebook is a door to lust and young women and men are spending more on their mobile phones and the Internet than they are spending on food," he said.
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That totally seems to be the thing to focus on here, that Facebook is undermining their conservative ways... not that their conservative ways are rather messed up in the first place.

Anyway this is worth, a fictionalised film based on real life events that the Saudis tried to stop from ever being aired:

 
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