Paris attacks.

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Stretch said:
I don't think the ultimate objective is to break our spirit. They was to provoke a full scale war with the west. They want NATO troops to be sent into the Middle East, and use that as a recruitment tool to draw more of the Islamic world into to the conflict.
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I have to agree, they are trying to make their delusional prophecies come true so they can say 'we told you so' to their followers
 
Raz said:
If Islam as a religion is the cause, and for some the only cause, why weren't Muslims terrorising mainland Europe decades ago when security was far more lax? The religion and the Quran haven't changed, so why were Muslims less interested in carrying out attacks on mainland Europe than they are now?

I mean, lets ignore American 'Imperialism', the Russian invasion of Afghanistan and the subsequent arming and training of the proto-Taliban faction in response, the removal of an elected Iranian leader and support of a pro-West puppet in his place, the perceived support of the West towards Israel regardless of their occupation of Palestinian territories, the Cold War and the proxy wars in smaller countries, the support of pro-West but corrupt regimes in the Middle East. Lets forget all of that, because it's simply...religion.

Interesting read here

http://www.cf2r.org/fr/tribune-libre/islamist-terrorism-in-europe-the-case-of-belgium.php
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All of those things happened at the same time as the rise of the middle-eastern nations and the Saudis exporting wahhabism wherever their money would enable it to go. To look at this purely in terms of western interference causing people to organise in a militaristic way is either missing or wilfully ignoring a large piece of the puzzle.
 
Jono8 said:
You say that as though it is an excuse.

Nations have done horrible things to other nations throughout history, yet it is mainly Muslim fundamentalists who seem to have the biggest chip on their shoulder about everything and everyone, and seem to try and seek retribution for all the ills put on them by other people and other nations.

The fact is, they need to look closer to home and realise a lot of their problems stem from their own outdated, archaic society and traditions ( and by that, I mean how it affects their ability to cooperate with the rest of the developed world.)
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No excuse, but are Muslims human or Martians? If they are human then they're just as weak in controlling themselves and good at being misguided. What did the Jews do to the Germans to deserve the Holocaust? Not a lot. But it still happened though right?

All I'm saying is that rather than simplifying the cause and making it just about the Quran, people should realise that it goes far beyond that and those issues need to be addressed as well. If Islam ceases to exist, but things like what I mentioned still occur do you think it'll be acceptable? Of course not.
 
kissenger said:
Well I don't agree with the premiss of your question, but to answer it: the reason is because there weren't nearly as many Muslims in Europe decades ago. The vast majority came in the post-WWII period.

And you're also discounting the possibility that religions can change. Maybe Islam really was more peaceful in the past, but if it was it has now (for many Muslims) clearly morphed into something much more violent and extremist and dogmatic.

If you think that Islam has nothing to do with it then you are just denying reality.
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Certain ways of teaching islam are being used as a focus. The Arab world appears to have become very disconnected , there are comfortable wealthy people that have made a lot of money from the west consumer. Their position is slowly becoming weaker,

The west has hastened this process by invading Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, supporting and celebrating the 'Arab spring'.

Add to that the blatent persecution of the Palestinian population and support of Israel , what do people think will happen?

It is bizarre that Iran is the a stable and secure part of the region.
 
oldbag said:
And on a side note, but do you think the full snoopers charter would have stopped this?
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Not a chance a full snoopers charter could stop all planned attacks from happening, these murdering scumbags know what channels to use. They have tech savy recruits with excellent education and knowledge.
 
Slam62 said:
Totally agree, you reap what you sow.
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Well that's just a stupid attitude. You sound like you would fit right in at an ISIS training camp. But just bear in mind that this 'reap what you sow' stuff tends to work both ways. Let's see what the French response is to this. I would wager that it's not, 'let's stop all air strikes against IS and turn the Eiffel tower into a Mosque.' It will be more along the lines of, 'let's start thinking about a ground war, and by the way has anyone got Putin's number.'

And if that happens there will be way more than 160 dead on the 'other' side.
 
Caged said:
All of those things happened at the same time as the rise of the middle-eastern nations and the Saudis exporting wahhabism wherever their money would enable it to go. To look at this purely in terms of western interference causing people to organise in a militaristic way is either missing or wilfully ignoring a large piece of the puzzle.
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Indeed, which is why the West wasn't particularly concerned about first generation immigrants being Muslim extremists.

I'm aware of the facts. I also think blaming religion or God for everything is the same, as many people do.
 
aardvark said:
But Islam has changed - you just have to look how progressive a lot of muslim countries were 50/100 years ago (hey, even a 1000 years ago!).
but the last 50 years has seen it become much more dogmatic - i have no idea why this has happened.
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I'm going to guess this is down to the Saudi influence they have brought this Whabism into play and export it all over the world through books and schools they sponsor.

The Muslims I would say have no course of action but to follow the Saudi way as they own Mecca. We all know the Saudis are power crazy and will do anything to stay in power and of course religion is a great tool for those purposes
 
Until we address Saudi Arabia and Wahhabism there were always be a problem.

But we need their oil and they buy lots of weapons form us so don't hold your breath.
 
stopper said:
No they haven't. Only the western media have claimed it was IS.
There has been no official claims to it yet.

People need to stop automatically believing every thing they hear on state sponsored media like the BBC and Sky news, and start questioning things. Remember when the BBC claimed Russia shot down the plane in Ukraine? Whatever happened to that story, eh?

I am betting this is another false flag, created to allow NATO to send in ground troops to Syria and N Iraq. Watch what happens.
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Calm down, sunshine. It's not just on "state sponsored media like BBC and Sky News". It's all over.
 
Damn, just got up to speed on this :(

RIP to all those who lost their lives and my condolences to all those who lost a friend / loved one. What a shockingly sad state the world is in right now.

Might be time to show IS what real military force is once and for all.
 
stopper said:
No they haven't. Only the western media have claimed it was IS.
There has been no official claims to it yet.

People need to stop automatically believing every thing they hear on state sponsored media like the BBC and Sky news, and start questioning things. Remember when the BBC claimed Russia shot down the plane in Ukraine? Whatever happened to that story, eh?

I am betting this is another false flag, created to allow NATO to send in ground troops to Syria and N Iraq. Watch what happens.
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Who arranged it then?
 
Raz said:
If Islam as a religion is the cause, and for some the only cause, why weren't Muslims terrorising mainland Europe decades ago when security was far more lax? The religion and the Quran haven't changed, so why were Muslims less interested in carrying out attacks on mainland Europe than they are now?
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:confused: Erm they were, but not as much because we were stronger back then. Osama bin Laden correctly identified that the Christendom had weakened significantly in the '90s and so started planning 9/11 as a call to arms - it worked and now more and more Muslims are attracted to jihad.
 
This debate requires that people mentally separate religion from the act.

The religion that these terrorists follow is irrelevant. Religion has been used as justification for war and committing atrocities since time immemorial.

Attacking the religion, in this case, Islam, is counter-productive. The vast majority of Muslims in Europe are peaceful and living productive, positive lives; we need to keep them onside not alienate them.

The objective should be to starve the terrorists of recruits and to make the operational environment so hostile and difficult to work in that they go elsewhere. They will attack, so the best you can hope for is that attack isn't directed against your country.
 
Raz said:
I'm aware of the facts. I also think blaming religion or God for everything is the same, as many people do.
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Indeed, one cannot blame religion for an idiots interpretation of it's values, the question is, how to eradicate the idiots.

A truly horrendous act in Paris, my thoughts and condolences for the victims and their families and friends.
 
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