PC with good sound card better than HiFi's

FatRakoon · 10 May 2006 at 18:28

Yes, thats very true.

you hear of this or that setup sounding good for Rock music, but the other kit is good for classical, etc.

To be honest with you all, I like my music, I like it a lot, but I am stone deaf in my right ear, and only have 70% hearing in my left, so I cannot hear music as good as I like to.... Its still good enough to know that the Genuis 1400w setup I got becsuser some mate told me its the dogs, was immediately given away to another friend, who then later gave me them back when I bought his DVD Recorder off him, and its now assigned to my daughters PC and even at 8yo she says its crap... her words, not mine.

My Altec Lansing 251 are great... Not high quality but thumpy for their size, much more thumpy than most PC speaker kits, and are very well suited towards strong metal music, but you can hear, or rather not hear the pink floyd bits that you need to with a good HiFi.... Jazz and blues sound nice through them too, but again, they are nowhere near the best. They cost about 50-60 notes, and for the price, they are fairly hard to beat I recon.

Corasik · 11 May 2006 at 00:12

THX...

I dont even like THX system, My Tag AV32R is THX Ultra3 certified, THX adds in a bunch of filters, and I find the end result sounds flat, it loses a lot of top end detail.

Luckily... its optional. Press one button and THX is disabled, and for movies nothing beats a good DTS soundtrack with a non THX system

.. or THX's ******* filters turned off.

TooNice · 11 May 2006 at 00:17

Eh? How does that work. THX is merely a certification. Since when did THX become some kind of filters?

FatRakoon · 11 May 2006 at 00:57

You can switch THX off?

How can that be?

Its either THX certified, or it isnt?

tom_nieto · 11 May 2006 at 09:30

THX certification on PC speakers and the THX modes that you get on some really expensive amps are totally different. They're both certified for sure, but as Corasik says the THX mode adds filters and fiddles the sound. I think they try to make the whole thing sound grander and more cinematic by adding more crash bang. The actual sound modes are only available on upmarket AV amps IIRC.

EDIT: You can only get THX Ultra 2

squiffy · 11 May 2006 at 11:45

TooNice said:
Eh? How does that work. THX is merely a certification. Since when did THX become some kind of filters?

THX does have filters, such as Cinema Re-Eq, subwoofer peak protect, dialogue normaliztion, etc. My THX Ultra av pre-amp has these features, which you can enable or disable (in THX more or other modes) Check the THX site.

Townlea · 11 May 2006 at 17:30

Yewen said:
It is a pointless debate, a £200 seperates system bought 2nd hand will completely wipe the floor with a £200 PC sound system. Without a doubt.

I agree aswell

My 2x Mission speakers on a 550w NAD amp blows my brothers Z5500 out the window

Well am not argueing... just agreeing with Yewen

ecksmen · 11 May 2006 at 18:03

WatchTower said:
Why pay 100s of pound for a HiFi when you can get a sound card for about £40 that gives better sound. Well thats how I see it anyway.

And how does the sound from the sound card get into your ears. Also, is your PC silent?

hum... Someone hasn't really thought this through.

fish99 · 11 May 2006 at 22:40

adfinni said:
Ta for the remarks, it does me nicely, but im hoping to get some spikes for the speakers and cd player soon.

I was wondering about how you've got those speakers setup actually. When I tried my Monitor 3's (which have built in spikes) or my JBL Control 1's (they are my actual PC speakers, connected to a t-amp) just sat on my PC desk they sounded pretty poor. When I connected the JBLs to some satellite stands it did wonders for their sound. On the desk, I guess the sound was reflecting off the desk surface, and the sound was travelling straight into the desk as well, and probably echoing in the space under the desk.

Like this they sound miles better-

They're a little toed in and further apart since that was took.

You could try putting something under your B2s to lift them up 6 inches to ear height, see if it makes any difference. Just tilting them back 20 degrees should give you a good idea too.

-Ad- · 12 May 2006 at 00:31

Well to tell you the truth when i removed the blu-tac from the bottom of the speakers, i could tell a difference. mainly with the bass being more boomy. It was just a pain trying to peel the speakers off the desk when i took em home from uni.
The tweeters on the b2's are pretty much at ear height at the moment, and you might be able to see from my pics that they are angled in a bit.
But the ideal listening position is about 2m further back from my desk, and that is the sweet spot

FatRakoon · 15 May 2006 at 22:39

Ok, I have a bit of an update too!

THX.
The Audigy 2 and the XFI are both THX Certified. Now, I didnt think till now, that you need to turn THX on, and thats all fine, but coupled with the AltecLansing 955 Speakers ( Also THX ) I was not overly impressed with it to be honest. I was impressed, dont get me wrong, but not exactly thrown out of my seat like...

Anyway, the 955's are by far, the best PC Speakers I have, they are crystal clear, and absolutely gorgeous sounding.

At this very moment however, I am upstairs on another box, I have dragged up my JBL 6 Channel Digital setup, and having a good play about, and quite frankly, I am utterly shocked.

First of all, I do want and like 5.1. I find it useful for gaming, and I would not have it any other way... more speakers I find a little silly really, so 5.1 is fine.

The JBLs dont seem to sound too good with 5.1 however... The speakers sound like they are toy-plastic and there is near to zero bass at all, and they have a strong sound of "£19.99 Argos special offer" to them that I dont like, however, saying that, when using the Dolby, and having just the standard Stereo inputs going to it, the sound is a near-beautiful ultra-crisp sound that I am in love with.

I am currently listening to the Audigy 1 through them, and at this moment its showing me that the XFI simply isnt up to it, and thats really showing how good this kit really is!

Hell, I have just finished listening to some Gorillaz and now I am on to OhhLaLa by GoldFrapp and I am hearing things that the XFI and AL955's just dont give me... Perhaps accoustics are coming more into play as I have insulated the LAN Room and the other kit is in my living room, but still...

Now, to be fair, I had tried these before, and I wasnt overly impressed with them, and I did notice how much better Dolby & 2 Channel was than the normal 6 channel input because of the tinny sound, and I never really took them any further and I have had them not even connected but sat next to my TV / DVD Center purely cos they look the dogs, but I am really seriously considering moving them down to the main PC instead of the 955's and accepting that I have lost 5.1, cos the sound I am listinging to right now is seriously addictive.

Sod it, no more PC speakers I think.

DRZ · 15 May 2006 at 23:26

If baited, I will write a full reply for you, but for now I am just going to be brief...

PC sound cards for less than ~£200 are all absolute pap. I am talking absolutely here, not relatively. Do you think a studio is going to be using an X-Fi?

I have had PC speakers, I currently have a ~£2k hifi.

When I am mucking about, I use my PC. When I am serious about wanting the best from a particular CD, I use my CDP.

I wouldnt ever spend £5k on a CDP but I wouldnt think twice about buying a £2000 cdp I liked the sound of - and that would be blind tested so it wouldnt be the price making the decisions.

An amp cant possibly improve the sound from a rubbish source - how can it? Each stage in the chain can only detract from the sound. You need to match everything in your system up, then it will sound the best.

FatRakoon · 16 May 2006 at 01:38

DRZ said:
PC sound cards for less than ~£200 are all absolute pap. I am talking absolutely here, not relatively. Do you think a studio is going to be using an X-Fi? /QUOTE]

Too harsh I think.

Although I have to be completely honest with you, I have an Atari TT, running CuBase, and my Midi gear, which unfortunately, due to a psycho EX has depleted in its size massively, mostly consists of Korg, Akai, and Boss expanders, although I also have a couple of Yamaha keyboards, and I will be completely honest with you here, but no PC I have EVER had, even comes close to the quality of my Atari gear... Hell, even the XFI cannot cope with the Midi Data going through it without losing its timing in a serious way, so no, anyone who takes Midi Music seriously will NOT be using a cheap and nasty SoundCard, but then, even cards such as the XFI are designed not for studio use but rather as a serious home user card. For the More serious user, you are looking towards EMU, M-Audio or RME etc, but the vast majority of PC users also want a good gaming card over a Pro Audio card, and so the XFI or well, any creative card will be a more sensible option for them.

The best option I currently have for Midi Music is a Turtle Beach Santa Cruz with a DB50XG on it, and even then, its crap compared to my Atari.

DRZ said:

An amp cant possibly improve the sound from a rubbish source - how can it? Each stage in the chain can only detract from the sound. You need to match everything in your system up, then it will sound the best.

Click to expand...

No, I think thats a little wrong too!
So, what you are saying, is that a £2000 AMP will sound the same as a £50 one will then?

What we are getting into here, is arguements over something that a vast magority of people here, will never really get to hear to compare whether their Audio setup is or isnt any better than what you or I might have.

I for one, would just love to own somethign that costs more than a house, but I, like 99.99% of users have somethign thats sensible.

Not everyone will even care whether this or that sounds any better, as long as their PC goes bleep or bang in the right places.

Sure, some AMPS can pick up bits of sounds that others dont, and listenign to this AMP will be better than that one, but who in their right mind would pay £1000's just to have a slightly better sound, if most of the time they cannot really enjoy it.

Dotn get me wrong here, if I won the lottery, I would be the first in the cue to buy the most expensive Audio setup I could find, but I live in the real world, and the best Audio kit I have at this time that I have actually bought myself is a Denon Amp, with B&W Speakers, and a Philiips CD Player, and a Bloody Realistic Turntable, the JBL Dolby processor and its gubbins, as well as my Sony HiFi, have all been stolen off my dad ( Long term borrowing ) and the Altec Lansing 955s that I like so much were given to me by InsanCen cos they are poo compared to his HiFi kit, but I like them.

I am deaf in my right ear, and only have 70% hearing in my left, so for me, wasting money on any real decent kit will be just that... Wasting money.

TooNice · 16 May 2006 at 02:03

DRZ said:
Do you think a studio is going to be using an X-Fi?

No, but there are studio level card for under £200. Not that it says that much to be honest. For the best music playback, you are most likely going to have to go dedicated DAC/Amp anyway. People who are willing to spend several hundred pounds on a PC source more often than not go that route, as opposed to a studio card. I doubt it is because they can't handle a studio card for music playback, but simply because those studio cards charge premiums on recording features that people who want to enjoy music (as opposed to making music).. just like the Creative card charge a premium for people who want something versatile, most notably, all the gaming features.

I do however agree that the source is more important than the amp. A good source can drive headphones, and presumably speakers pretty well. Amping would improve further, but it is the last few %. However, plug in a good amp to a poor source, and the end result would still be poor. The source and what it drives influence the SQ the most IMO, amp, interconnects and everything else all have their influences, but are less significant.

DRZ · 16 May 2006 at 09:23

TooNice said:
I do however agree that the source is more important than the amp. A good source can drive headphones, and presumably speakers pretty well. Amping would improve further, but it is the last few %. However, plug in a good amp to a poor source, and the end result would still be poor. The source and what it drives influence the SQ the most IMO, amp, interconnects and everything else all have their influences, but are less significant.

Have you ever tried to drive some speakers without an amplifier? Line level isnt enough to drive a speaker properly.

So far from being "the last few %" it is in fact pretty damn essential.

FatRakoon said:
No, I think thats a little wrong too!
So, what you are saying, is that a £2000 AMP will sound the same as a £50 one will then?

No - thats not what I said at all. I said an amplifier can only detract from the sound. (By detract I mean change the signal in any way at all other than amplification). A £2000 Class A amp detracts from the sound far less than a £50 digital (Class 'D') amp.

Of course, no amplifier is perfect and so how it changes the sound becomes the difference between a cheap amp and an expensive one. Look at top end amps from the likes of Krell, Chord, Mark Levinson etc. The figures for total harmonic distortion etc all blow many manufacturers out the water but how they do it is the reason they are all different (and expensive).

Pricing is another thing people have never really understood - I think if you look at it in terms of scale, it all makes pretty good sense.

From looking inside one, the power amp stage in a JVC hifi could be built for less than £1 - I would be amazed if presented with figures that put the whole unit at a cost more than £10 to build, box and ship!

Take a £3,000 amplifier and open it up - in there it might strike you as looking the same but after some closer inspection, you will see that they are not. The likes of ML etc all use amazingly high tolerance resistors and capacitors (we are talking 0.1% rather than the 5% that cheapo manufacturers use!) and these are NOT cheap to buy. Then you have all of the other components, all of which are of the highest specification and you find yourself with a product that costs perhaps £100 to make in parts, plus the expertise etc to make it and you have a product that maybe costs £300 to 'make' (the design costs arent as diluted when you only sell 1000 units!). That JVC unit probably sells in tens of thousands across the globe for ~£150 - 15x more than it costs to make. The ML amp might only sell 1000 units so all things considered, they arent making *that* much profit on what is actually a far superior product

My preamp costs £1200 new - all it does is let me choose what input I want and adjust the volume. Was it worth it? I think so - truly excellent sound quality.

For 'most' people, sound quality doesnt seem to matter much but that is no reason to state that buying hifi is a waste of money etc etc as some people here have. The enjoyment "we" get from our comparatively expensive hifis is justification enough

TooNice · 16 May 2006 at 16:31

DRZ said:
Have you ever tried to drive some speakers without an amplifier? Line level isnt enough to drive a speaker properly.

So far from being "the last few %" it is in fact pretty damn essential.

I still stand by what I said. Chances are, by the time you spend that sort of money on a source, you wouldn't be ampless. But if you offer me a Meridian G08, or even G07 source or a G57 amp today, I would pick the former without a second thought. You can certainly get something out of a source alone (if not speakers, then at least headphones). Plug in a £2000 amp on a "free" source (say onboard sound card), and at most, you are just going to get very loud, but still very poor sound. This isn't going to change once you start spending more on an amp/source respectively: I would still pick a £2000 source/£100 amp solution, versus a £100 source/£2000 amp solution - etc. Well, this is assuming all variables are constant, and the £100 amp/source (as opposed to one being a top DYI item, and the other being an overpriced/marketed item) in the same class. Now granted, this last variable will vary more the higher you go. Every now and then you may hear about some product that offers exceptional value, be, it amp or source. But I guess this is straying OT already. I guess that is the problem when using price to assert the quality of a product. You open a whole new can of worms.

DRZ · 16 May 2006 at 17:46

TooNice said:
I still stand by what I said. Chances are, by the time you spend that sort of money on a source, you wouldn't be ampless. But if you offer me a Meridian G08, or even G07 source or a G57 amp today, I would pick the former without a second thought. You can certainly get something out of a source alone (if not speakers, then at least headphones). .

Nope, sorry, not the case.

Might work with headphones but there isnt a CD Player in the land that has a beefy enough line level output stage to drive speakers.

FrankJH · 17 May 2006 at 00:37

Like anything, THX sounds excellent when with the right equipment throughtout the setup - some top cinemas swear by THX equipment (projectors, amsp and speakers and I think screens are now certified as well) but I have no idea why they started doing pc speakers because to My mind that has ruined their reputation.

Ok I am a huge George Lucas / ILM / SkyWalker Sound fan, so its natural I would probably like THX also , and I have heard it sounding fabulous on £2000 amp feeding a £3000 5.1 speaker system and my jaw hit the floor, it was that amazing, certainly equal to DTS , and I think DTS is underestimated as it can produce phenomenal results.

However, I would say DTS sounds alround better on cheaper equipment, more contained and basey while still thrilling - I havent heard a decent THX system under the £4000 mark ( for the audio) and thats cheap for THX, when there are speakers around that cost twice that , and you still have to buy the amp or pre-amp & processor combo let alone the visual side also etc etc

There are some decent THX amps around now for the £1000 mark and match these with decent speakers and one (or preferably two) subs and you wll have a killer of a system..............unfortunely few of us - unfortunately including me - cant afford this kind of home cinema

Just my 2p's worth

tom_nieto · 17 May 2006 at 00:56

You're totally right Frank, thing is though how many people do you think will have bought THX certified PC speakers because of those three letters because they must be good. George lucas won't be worried about his reputation because the top end systems are still awesome. As has already been discussed the certification criteria vary massivly between PC speakers and proper AV gear. It just means more money for him!

FrankJH · 17 May 2006 at 06:17

tom_nieto said:
You're totally right Frank, thing is though how many people do you think will have bought THX certified PC speakers because of those three letters because they must be good. George lucas won't be worried about his reputation because the top end systems are still awesome. As has already been discussed the certification criteria vary massivly between PC speakers and proper AV gear. It just means more money for him!

I am sure you are correct, but then its probably the same for people who have matched top quality JBL speakers to illsuited amplification and got an awful sound. Just because two pieces

I know the certification is completely different , just as pc speakers in general are completely different from their HiFi bretheren, i just think its a pity thats all