Please help with speaker guidance

etherd

etherd

etherd

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Joined
15 Aug 2012
Posts
59
Hello,
So im looking to buy some new speakers for my new rig - i currently have: NO LINKING TO COMPETITORS!

So you see why im looking to upgrade.
Ive done some research into speakers, and i thought i was quite computer savvy, but speakers and sound seem to confuse me for some reason.

I will be using the speakers for (pretty equally) music, movies, music composition and games. Im not overly bothered by deep booming bass, that ratles windows at this stage, im more interested in richness and tone.
I sit about 1 1/2 - 2 feet from my monitor.
I have a E-mu 0404 (http://www.creative.com/emu/products/product.aspx?category=505&pid=20022).
And am looking to spend £100 - £200(flexible).

I know there is some debate between buying pc speakers/home theatre systems. Not sure what i should be looking at. However i read to avoid HTIB because speakers are usually a bit rubbish, and its cheaper and you end up with better quality by building your own. So i would be open to more of an "upgrade" system to fit my budget rather than buying everything at once, if its recommended to go the home theatre route. So starting with 2.1 and eventually upgrading to 5.1. This is where i get confused in the swamp of dobly digital, thx cetified, whether home theatre works with pc surround for music/games/movies, recievers (do i need one?), reading that s/pdif can be used for 5.1 but dosnt sound as good as 5.1 over analog.


Systems i have been looking at(pc speakers):
Logitech Z-906
Yamaha NS-P20
Logitech Z5500

Home theatre(upgradable):
Polk Audio CS2 Series II Center Channel Speaker
Polk Audio Monitor30 Series II Two-Way Bookshelf Loudspeaker

Could someone please give me some guidance and advice as to what i should be going for, and what setup will work best with what i have avaliable (budget and hardware)? As i said the main thing is richness in tone and quality. With surround a close second.

Thanks! ;)
 
Personally i would get a dedicated amp. Something along the lines of an onkyo, dennon or yamaha (second hand obviously) and a pair of decent bookshelf speakers or a 5.1 speaker set such as the yamaha NS-P20. Good thing about a dedicated amp is, you can put whatever speakers you want on, plenty of connections and will satisfy your needs far longer than say a Z5500 where it has very limited connectivity and is also limited on what speakers you can use on it.
 
No point in trying to go 5.1 with an EMU 0404 as that is a pro sound card with 1/4" 2 pole jack outputs. Best of getting a nice stereo amp and some suitable bookshelf speakers to pair with it. Amp wise, look at rotel, marantz, nad, pioneer, technics, cambridge audio, arcam, yamaha, denon etc. You can usually find a good bargin sub £100 second hand. Speakers are a more difficult choice as they are much more personal and you have to like the sound, plus they need to be a suitable size and in decent condition. Everyones favourite budget "goto" speaker is the wharfdale diamond. Also consider monitor audio, mordaunt short, B&W, Kef, celestion etc. Room acoustics and the positioning of the speakers will play a huge part too, so you'll find a set of speakers can sound very different, just by moving them around and changing the room. If they are going to be close to a wall, do not go for rear ported.
 
Kei said:
No point in trying to go 5.1 with an EMU 0404 as that is a pro sound card with 1/4" 2 pole jack outputs. Best of getting a nice stereo amp and some suitable bookshelf speakers to pair with it. Amp wise, look at rotel, marantz, nad, pioneer, technics, cambridge audio, arcam, yamaha, denon etc. You can usually find a good bargin sub £100 second hand. Speakers are a more difficult choice as they are much more personal and you have to like the sound, plus they need to be a suitable size and in decent condition. Everyones favourite budget "goto" speaker is the wharfdale diamond. Also consider monitor audio, mordaunt short, B&W, Kef, celestion etc. Room acoustics and the positioning of the speakers will play a huge part too, so you'll find a set of speakers can sound very different, just by moving them around and changing the room. If they are going to be close to a wall, do not go for rear ported.
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^^this. If you can afford and will give you more flexability.
Or these AE aego M's http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=SP-000-AE&groupid=702&catid=22&subcat= just got some of these and they sound fantastic for the money.
 
Thanks for the replies people - really appreciate it.
No point in trying to go 5.1 with an EMU 0404 as that is a pro sound card with 1/4" 2 pole jack outputs.
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What does this mean? haha. How come surround wont work with the card?

Also what do you mean by amp? i only understand amps to be great big speakers to which a guitar etc gets plugged in. Sorry for my total non-understanding of this, i promise im rather tech savvy in other aspects :)
Im guessing the amp connects to the card through optical and controls the bookshelves? I take it this method would allow me to eventually upgrade and get a sub too?
Thanks - need all the help i can get
 
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The card doesn't support surround as it only has stereo outputs. (i.e left & right only)

An amplifier is the bit that sits in between the speakers and the sound card. (in simplest terms, its the bit with the volume control) Active speakers have an amplifier built in, passive speakers require the separate amp. The amp connects to the speakers via an analogue cable. In your case a pair of 1/4" jack plugs to phono. Generally speaking, standard stereo amplifiers do not support the addition of a sub, but usually the speakers are sufficiently decent that a sub isn't necessary. (a sub is usually added to make up for deficient main speakers) Most decent bookshelf speakers can manage mid 40Hz before output falls by 6dB.
 
Ah shame about the surround sound not being supported. How about from onboard sound or will the quality suffer? I thought the optical out from the sound card would allow for 5.1. Is analog the better option for sound quality, i assumed it would be digital? I wouldnt need an amp for something like: http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=SP-000-AE&groupid=702&catid=22&subcat=
I take it? Because the speakers are active?
I liked the idea of having something more than stereo even just 2.1 to get more of an immersive "surround" effect. So if im playing a game i can hear more emphasis from explosions etc from left and right while the centre sorts the rest. Or if im composing/listening to music hearing violins on my left and cellos on the right, if that makes sense? How can i achieve this?
 
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The emu 0404 sound card is a professional card and therefore handles professional standards, it's a very good card by all accounts. (If it weren't for the headphone amp built into the xonar card i have now, i would have bought one when i replaced my x-fi) The dac in the card is very high quality and you'd probably find it is better than most integrated dacs in most mid range kit. Those aego's are indeed active (a small amp built in) and do not require a separate amp in order to run.

I will admit that i started out with a fairly high end surround system 10 years back. It took me 6 years to see the light and i went to stereo and haven't looked back. I still like surround sound for movies/games and that is it. I haven't actually turned on my marantz av receiver in the best part of 8 months now. A good stereo amp with a half decent pair of speakers really can do that.
 
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Awesome, well its good to know i didn't buy bad when choosing that card, was told to get it because of good ASIO support. So if i was to go the amp route, what is the best output to use from the card to the amp, iv'e read, during my many hours researching, that optical will give the best results and sound reproduction, is this true? or should it just be analog out (from jacks?) to analog in at amp?
Would something as simple as this suffice: http://www.amazon.co.uk/CAMB-Cambri...2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1350901319&sr=1-2
Will an amp support 2.1? just because i feel like the would help with the all round emmersion instead of just left and right sticking a centre in the mix?
Sorry for more non-understanding, but if im just doing stereo (or 2.1) why do i need an amp if i bought active speakers? the card has L and R output? :/
Instead of just going out and buying i want to understand why and what i'm buying,Thanks again for the help! ;)
 
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Using the optical output takes away the need to use the digital to analogue converter in the sound card itself. This is beneficial when dealing with poor quality cards (like onboard solutions) as you are no longer having the low quality components do any work. You'd connect it up to something that does have a decent converter. With the EMU card, it'd probably outclass most average converters. So in your case, using optical will not guarantee best results. The only time you are likely to find optical makes an improvement is if you suffer interference pickup over analogue. (due to excessive EM noise pickup in the cables or a ground loop etc)

When dealing with passive speakers (that just have + and - connections on the back, no volume controls or mains cables etc) you would need an amp like the cambridge audio one you linked to. Most stereo amps like that do not support any more than 2 speakers natively, meaning you cannot add a sub very easily. It's not impossible to add a sub though as some allow you to run the speaker cables through the sub and on to the speakers allowing the sub to pickup the sound. If you bought active speakers (2.1 or 2.0 etc) you would not need a separate amplifier as there would be a very compact one with the speakers. (usually built in to one of them)

Due to the limitations of the sound card itself though, you cannot run a centre channel (or rear channels) as they simply doesn't exist. The card has no output for them and a stereo amp has neither the inputs or outputs.

To show you a rough example, this is the back of my stereo amp. On the right are the speaker connections. I only use the A speakers, but the amp allows me to run a second pair that i can switch between. On the left are all of the inputs and outputs. (it's from the early 80's so the names are a bit old fashioned now) You just get stereo pairs in and some recording outputs.
L220-Back.jpg
 
So stick to analog, yes?
If you bought active speakers (2.1 or 2.0 etc) you would not need a separate amplifier as there would be a very compact one with the speakers
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I take it this affects overal sound quality? And thats why im better of with passive speakers and an amp - for better sound reproduction? am i getting closer?
Thanks for the pic kind of cleared thing up (very retro ;) ). I was thinking more of a centre than a sub, but if my card wont allow for it then theres no point.

So would a cheapie £70 amp like the one i linked suffice, dont think i need one full of EQ stuff, main thing is i would prefer a smaller one than a great big lug of a box of my desktop, without quality suffering. Does the amp affect sound quality or just wattage and loudness, or is quality all down to the sound card?
Music composition?

KRK Rokit 6s
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I take it these are good? they certainly look snazy! I mainly use sibelius and EWQL for classical composition, no "live recording". Thats why i want the richness of tone, nothing worse than tin-sounding violins and honking french horns! The wharfedale Diamonds look nice too, just a pain i cant hear any of them.
 
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You'd definitely get more out of a good set of separates vs active speakers. That cambridge audio amp you linked to earlier is not the best example. You really could do with around 40W. Amp quality is a much bigger factor than the sound card quality, it needs to be good at rejecting noise and sufficiently powerful that it has headroom to output your required listening level without clipping. The second hand market is excellent for amplifiers as you can really pick up some excellent bargains. (have a hunt around and see what you can find, use the list i wrote up in post #3) If you have a richer sounds or super fi store near you, you should be able to get an audition of some equipment. Try various speakers and amps and see what you like.
 
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Just spoke to my dad and he got out some old akai speakers and an akai am m11 amp. Think its about 30 years old or something. It still sounded good though. He said i could have it but i think i might be better with something slightly more modern as i guess technology changes quite rapidly.
Thanks for the advice i will have a shop around and run it by you before i buy if thats ok?
 
That's a starting point. If it sounds quite good to you, it's what matters. Kit has improved over the years, but not much. Mainly improved in efficiency and size. My hifi is very old, but you'd never know it from listening to it. Old gear does need maintenance though as the electrolytic capacitors used dry out over time and the performance of the device will fall. I have replaced every capacitor in my hifi and it made one heck of a difference. This is where people buying new hifi believe that things have really improved a lot more than it has. I'm not suggesting you go and get the akai stuff refurbished though as it's not exactly cheap to do. I spent around £200 rebuilding my luxman amp. (Which I saved from a skip in a workplace clearout) Keep your eyes peeled on freecycle and the like as some people don't always realise the things they have.

You are welcome to ask, me or someone should be able to answer most questions.
 
If it's for general use then you're better off not getting hi-fi separates. I have used several different hi-fi speakers with my computer and i always end up going back to the M-Audio AV40 for general use.

Hi-fi speakers are great for listening to music. But the problem with all the hi-fi speakers I've tested is they always had boosted highs and bass, so the mids end up being quite soft. Dialogue in movies and TV programmes suffers when you have soft mids. You don't get that problem with the AV40 because they have a relatively flat response. Just make sure you get the original version of the AV40 with bass boost as they are better quality than the AV40 MKII.

One problem with the AV40 is the bass response is not as good, but i still prefer them to bigger hi-fi separates for games and movies for the realism they add to the sound.
 
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The problem you've had with hi-fi separates is entirely down to the speakers not the amp. (amp response should be nearly flat from 5/10Hz -> 40/50KHz) You choose the speakers that suit your requirements. I set my hi-fi up using spoken voice rather than music as it gives a better impression of how close to normal it sounds. (there is a file on the harbeth site that is prefect for setup purposes)
 
Can't find this file you referred to on the herbeth site. I use a t-amp anyway so it wouldn't be of much help to me.
 
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