Poll: Poll: Do you think the force is reasonable and justified?

[enkoda]

Completely justified! I worked in a large pub in the main clubbing area where i lived and have seen this situation on many occasions and have had to help the door staff out on many occasions when there was to many people (customers) involved. Sometimes it take a big hit like that to defuse the situation, sometimes it gets worse. Doormen and women have a very hard job, dealing with drunks, avoiding getting attacked by people who are tooled up or getting glassed.

Why are drunk people being served more alcohol? Money.
Why are the door staff letting in more people than can be managed effectively? Money.

I'm a Personal Licence holder and when I used to go out every weekend through my 20s and 30s I would see people smashed out their faces on alcohol and still get served, yet I could count on one hand the amount of times I witnessed bar staff refuse to serve someone because they've had too much to drink and still have fingers left over.
Blaming drunk people for the failings of management and door staff to pre-empt this kind of situation is passing the buck.

Then how can you say the final blow was unjustified. The kid could be saying something along the lines of "I am going to cut you up" or "time for a acid bath".

In an ideal world the bouncer would have noticed the atrocious grammar being used and corrected the use of "a acid bath" for "an acid bath"!!

Funny thing is that only a generation ago that kids father would most likely give him a second beating after seeing how he behaved.

We know nothing from that video that tells us who attacked who first, or why. Everyone is assuming that the lad instigated the attack and until all the facts are known then I'll stick with judging the video on what I saw, not what can be fabricated to justify the bouncer's actions.
The lad didn't cut up the bouncer or throw acid at him, nor was there any threat from the lad's mates. The bouncer could have removed himself from this situation but he didn't.

 

[Zethor]

That looks reasonable to me. If a person keeps coming after two punches they could be armed or high on drugs and both situations pose a potentially serious threat to the bouncer.

 

[Glacius]

Looks reasonable to me, if your going to act like that be it sober or drunk then you deserve what you get in return.

 

[Amnesia]

Then how can you say the final blow was unjustified. The kid could be saying something along the lines of "I am going to cut you up" or "time for a acid bath".

Even if he were to have said those words it still doesnt justify the beating.

not that the video shows him saying those words or shows the guy being armed. surely if we are to answer if the violence is justified and presented with a video then we go by what we see and hear in that video and not assume he has an uzi in his back pocket and an army invading our lands just out of the frame.

 

[Amnesia]

That looks reasonable to me. If a person keeps coming after two punches they could be armed or high on drugs and both situations pose a potentially serious threat to the bouncer.

or those words he was using, they could be life threatening

 

[krooton]

When did 3 boops = a beating?

Keep in mind, the guy falls down so theatrically due to him being sloshed.

 

[Lopéz]

That video does not show a "beating", not even close.

 

[Mark A]

The fact people think this is justifiable in itself makes me sad. Restrain said person as I said before and remove him the immediate area be that into the club until the police arrive or elsewhere. To the person who said there judgement is impaired in such situations - isn't that what the training is for ?

What happens when all the drunken idiots around start getting rowdy and attacking the bouncer for restraining the 'totally innocent' drunk guy? It might not be possible to drag him away kicking and screaming, plus that then leaves the situation outside out of control. If I was a bouncer i'd want to be on my feet and alert at all times, not holding a struggling drunk down while being surrounded by out of control, judgment impaired idiots.

Its the same with Police trying to restrain someone, people immediately take the person being restrained side and start filming and harassing the Police. It would be far worse for a bouncer who doesn't have cuffs, pepper spray or a baton or any real authority over the crowd.

 

[adam cool dude]

We know nothing from that video that tells us who attacked who first, or why. Everyone is assuming that the lad instigated the attack and until all the facts are known then I'll stick with judging the video on what I saw, not what can be fabricated to justify the bouncer's actions.
The lad didn't cut up the bouncer or throw acid at him, nor was there any threat from the lad's mates. The bouncer could have removed himself from this situation but he didn't.

The lad was jabbing him in the ribs/head at the beginning and was holding him there on in. The guy needed to defend himself.

 

[enkoda]

The lad was jabbing him in the ribs/head at the beginning and was holding him there on in. The guy needed to defend himself.

Again, what happened prior to the event being filmed? Everyone is assuming the bouncer didn't assault the lad first. I'd like the full facts before making a judgement. And defend himself from what, a lad that looks like he couldn't fight his own shadow without falling over?

 

[Jimbeam3678]

What happens when all the drunken idiots around start getting rowdy and attacking the bouncer for restraining the 'totally innocent' drunk guy?

Presumably the same thing that happened when he whacked the guy? They stood and didn't do a great deal, as I've said several times - restrain him drag him into the club and hold until the police arrive problem is isolated or simply retreat into clib as one person can't be expected to handle "all the drunken idiots".

The door person certainly didn't go looking for trouble but he certainly could have done more to avoid cracking him not once, not twice but THREE times! Lets not forget here he is the sober one, with training and is paid to keep a safe environment for other customers!

The above is not addressing the drunken person, licensing laws and bar tenders responsibilities as that's a separate discussion altogether.

 

[Ceryndrion]

For the record, the individual in question (not the doorman but the idiot) has been charged with 2 counts of assault by beating and has been released on bail pending an appearance before magistrates at the end of the month.

The doorman has been removed from duty at that particular venue

 

[Haggisman]

Blaming drunk people for the failings of management and door staff to pre-empt this kind of situation is passing the buck.

No. Blaming management/bar/door staff for idiots' inability to handle their drink and know when they've had enough is passing the buck. It's always someone else's fault

The guy was given several chances to walk away, and chose not to. With regards to restraining him, last thing you want to do when you're surrounded by potential attackers is get yourself down on the floor to hold someone down - that's just asking for a boot to the head.

Sure we can see from the video that he probably didn't have a weapon, but there's a hell of a lot of 20/20 hindsight in this thread, I'm guessing from people who've never been in a similar situation.

 

[DIABLO]

Presumably the same thing that happened when he whacked the guy? They stood and didn't do a great deal, as I've said several times - restrain him drag him into the club and hold until the police arrive problem is isolated or simply retreat into clib as one person can't be expected to handle "all the drunken idiots".

The door person certainly didn't go looking for trouble but he certainly could have done more to avoid cracking him not once, not twice but THREE times! Lets not forget here he is the sober one, with training and is paid to keep a safe environment for other customers!

The above is not addressing the drunken person, licensing laws and bar tenders responsibilities as that's a separate discussion altogether.

Wish I could live in your perfect world and know everything like you do.

Totally justified, the drunk idiot put himself in the situation.

 

[Jimbeam3678]

Wish I could live in your perfect world and know everything like you do.

Totally justified, the drunk idiot put himself in the situation.

I don't know everything just offering my opinion, which is what I thought a discussion board was for I do like though how totally ignored my caveat at the bottom.

 

[Angilion]

He knocked two guys down, and their heads hit the pavement. When they got up, he did it again and again. I watched their heads bounce off the concrete. Not sure how you missed that.
[..]

I saw it. Unlike you, I didn't misrepresent it. A person attacked him. He hit them once. The person attacked him again. He hit him once again. Another person attacked him. He hit that person once. The first person attacked him a third time. He hit him once again. One punch each time someone else attacked him. The bouncer is not the attacker here.

He did not do what you claimed he did, which was to get someone down, pick up their head and force it into the concrete repeatedly. That's a completely different thing. It's not what happened here.

 

[Angilion]

The fact people think this is justifiable in itself makes me sad. Restrain said person as I said before and remove him the immediate area be that into the club until the police arrive or elsewhere. To the person who said there judgement is impaired in such situations - isn't that what the training is for ?

Please explain how you would restrain a drugged up violent adult who has already repeatedly attacked you and other people, while in a crowd with an unknown number of other people who might attack you at any time including one person who already has. Please also explain how you would simultaneously protect other people in the area who are not attacking anyone but who are or might be attacked at any time. Please also explain how you could immediately and reliably detect any weapons that could be used.

Are you a superhero or a god? If not, you can't do what you claim should be done.

People don't use at least 4 on 1 for restraint because they want overtime pay. They do it because it's necessary. You've obviously never restrained a violent adult.

 

[DIABLO]

Please explain how you would restrain a drugged up violent adult who has already repeatedly attacked you and other people, while in a crowd with an unknown number of other people who might attack you at any time including one person who already has. Please also explain how you would simultaneously protect other people in the area who are not attacking anyone but who are or might be attacked at any time. Please also explain how you could immediately and reliably detect any weapons that could be used.

Are you a superhero or a god? If not, you can't do what you claim should be done.

People don't use at least 4 on 1 for restraint because they want overtime pay. They do it because it's necessary. You've obviously never restrained a violent adult.

Exactly, it takes 2-3 people to restrain someone safely so if 10 people kick off that is 30 door man you would need.... And all the while you're trying to restrain someone you have your back turned for another drunk idiot to bottle you. Doormen have to take a more robust approach when there is that many people around.

 

[Haggisman]

You've obviously never restrained a violent adult.

Why would you need to have done it know what you're talking about? Just watch WWE, it shows how easy it is to restrain someone twice your size just by holding their arm behind their back

 

[Dis86]

Why would you need to have done it know what you're talking about? Just watch WWE, it shows how easy it is to restrain someone twice your size just by holding their arm behind their back

Friggin hard enough to try and restrain a violent child without hurting them never mind a fully grown male!