Poor Nokia

[bam0]

Because Android isn't very profitable. Android is turning the mobile phone business into a clone of the PC market. When everyone is competing on hardware specs alone, margins get squeezed.

You really don't know what you're talking about do you? Tell HTC that Android isn't profitable...
As for competing on hardware specs alone, that surely explains why HTC developed Sense, Samsung TouchWiz, Sony Mediascape/Timescape, Motorola did MotoBlur.
Nokia could easily differentiate themselves in the same way, combined with their handset design skills and brand recognition I don't see how they couldn't make it work.
Given the choice of that or become yet another Windows 7 handset manufacturer where MS dictate what you can do with the platform I can't see why they wouldn't pick Android.

 

[Pav89]

lolwut, the E72 is shocking. I owned for 4 weeks before I literally threw it away because it kept hanging, crashing.

Switched for a Desire

lolwut, I also believe the E72 is a solid and reliable phone. Owned an iPhone 2G and 3G, both of them started to break, software is designed for all iPhone series so felt very sluggish. E72 is perfect - quick and easy to use. Yes, web browsing experience is tedious but it hasn't crashed/hung on me once. Always fast and ready to go. Plus I love the free ovi maps sat nav and the brilliant battery life.

I do agree that Nokia have been falling behind. If they're not innovating well enough in comparison to competitors, it's expected that they're going to lose market share.

 

[mrk]

E72 is borderline dumbphone than smartphone though.

 

[Tute]

I'd rather they took Symbian back to the drawing board and made it good again.

There are plenty of Android/WP7 devices out if you want them, surely another choice in the OS space is a good thing?

 

[Tunney]

Android is a product of the Open Handset Alliance, which is lead by Google. Partners help drive the development and direction of Android, such as the large input Sony had in driving the gaming features of 2.3.

I work in the industry. Unless you're the lead customer on a release, you're left in the dark. That's the reality of the situation. These alliances and foundations are always a sham. There's always one company in the driving seat.

You really don't know what you're talking about do you? Tell HTC that Android isn't profitable...

HTC makes less profit from phones than Apple, RIM and Nokia, despite being one of the first companies to every manufacture smartphones. Can you tell me what Apple, RIM and Nokia have in common? Answer: they all own the software platform.

You also fail the mention that LG's handset division, Motorola and Sony Ericsson are all really struggling at the moment. Life is hard if you only control the hardware.

As for competing on hardware specs alone, that surely explains why HTC developed Sense, Samsung TouchWiz, Sony Mediascape/Timescape, Motorola did MotoBlur.

Does anyone buy an Android phone for these customisations? How much extra is a customer willing to pay for them? It's no different from Dell or HP installing lots of crap that you don't want on your PC.

And again, these customisations require porting every time a new Android version is released. That's why Samsung and Sony Ericsson have both lagged behind in releasing the latest versions of Android for their phones. Plenty of customers aren't happy with this lag.

Once ZTE and the other Chinese OEMs really ramp up on Android, Sony Ericsson and Motorola are going to slip back into the red. Most people buy an Android phone because they want an iPhone but can't/won't pay the premium*. Price sensitive customers aren't going to buy a Motorola phone, no matter the customisations, if a ZTE phone with similar specs is half the price.

(* Yes, yes, I know most people on this forum don't fall into this category but most consumers do. Ask anyone who works in a phone retailer.)

 

[AGD]

It's unbelievable it's taken them this long to realise that they are losing the smartphone market. Answer, make phones with android and win7. Nokia is a hardware company - that's what they're good at and there's no point them trying to take on google, apple, or microsoft in software.

 

[sorn21]

I've often found Nokias to be feature packed, but crippled with Symbian.

I also think that this consensus runs true for most nerds..

So instead of tweaking a dead horse, they definitely should have jumped over to 'Droid or even WP7.

 

[Amp34]

Because Android isn't very profitable. Android is turning the mobile phone business into a clone of the PC market. When everyone is competing on hardware specs alone, margins get squeezed.

Nokia needs a competitive platform and I hope that they can develop it in-house. I don't think the world needs an Apple-Google duopoly in the smartphone market.

However, I would like to see Nokia partner with someone when it comes to services. Apart from Ovi Maps, Nokia's services strategy has completely failed. Getting a decent mail/music/video service on their phones would be a big boost.

I agree with the former, Android is starting to turn into a race to the bottom (cheapest handsets) and that is never a good thing.

I doubt there will ever be a duopoly in the smartphone market though, Apple haven't moved that much in marketshare in recent months whereas Android is taking lots of sales away from Symbian and to an extent WM and RIM. RIM will always stay a signficant part of the smartphone market and MS won't let WP7 fail. There will be at least 4 large phone OSs for a while yet (ie at least 4 with a 10-15%+ marketshare).

MeeGo may even move into that market too. Hopefully this means that most smartphone prograps/apps will be multiplatform. We're starting to see it already with the biggest ones and I can see this continuing as other companies jump on the bandwagon (eg why only release iOS apps when Android has a bigger market share and RIM users are downloading more and more).

I love how frank how he has been. You don't see that everyday in companies, usually it is masked by how well they are doing and what they are doing to "expand their markets".

Plus, I think them jumping onto the WP7 is great. It's probably going to drive the development of WP7 a lot I hope. HTC ad Samsung are too bothered with Android to give a damn about WP7. How many Phone have HTC and Samsung announced for new releases of WP7 phones (I guess MWC will tell)?

I reckon Nokia can push the development of WP7 (especially as Elop is ex-MS). Nokia are still on of the biggest handset makers in the world, and they have fans in northern Europe.

Really? How many current Android Phones do HTC have on their books ATM, compare that to the 3 WP7 phones they have, same with Samsung.

I don't know if Nokia would really have much of a seat in the MS design room, when compared to MSs very long history with HTC.

I'd rather they took Symbian back to the drawing board and made it good again.

There are plenty of Android/WP7 devices out if you want them, surely another choice in the OS space is a good thing?

Isn't that essentially what MeeGo is all about? Also didn't they already go back to the drawing board with symbian?

 

[bam0]

Does anyone buy an Android phone for these customisations? How much extra is a customer willing to pay for them? It's no different from Dell or HP installing lots of crap that you don't want on your PC.

And again, these customisations require porting every time a new Android version is released. That's why Samsung and Sony Ericsson have both lagged behind in releasing the latest versions of Android for their phones. Plenty of customers aren't happy with this lag.

Once ZTE and the other Chinese OEMs really ramp up on Android, Sony Ericsson and Motorola are going to slip back into the red. Most people buy an Android phone because they want an iPhone but can't/won't pay the premium*. Price sensitive customers aren't going to buy a Motorola phone, no matter the customisations, if a ZTE phone with similar specs is half the price.

(* Yes, yes, I know most people on this forum don't fall into this category but most consumers do. Ask anyone who works in a phone retailer.)

I'm going to sound like an old record here but HTC actively advertise their Sense customisations, and are well regarded for them, look at the reviews of their handsets and you'll find many prefer Sense to stock Android.
And despite having the most heavily customised version out there they still beat the established companies on providing major updates, the only phones that get them quicker are the official Google phones.

Nokia still have the brand recognition that could get them sales, if they were selling phones people wanted to buy and the biggest problem you face launching a new smartphone OS now is getting the developer buy in to create a software eco system, as an example look at the Palm Pre. I love the handsets and OS, but the software choice is lacking and a smartphone without software is a waste. At least with WP7 MS are using a development environment that many people are already familiar with. With Nokia's failure in the US I have trouble seeing how they'll get the big support they would need, developing an Android based phone mitigates that whole side completely.

 

[Amp34]

Just reading that statement in full and its very good and well thought out.

One thing to think about with hardware only manufacturing is that it can be great for the customer. Yes manufacturers are making almost identical phones due to the OS being very similar on each handset but, for the high end at least, that means to differentiate their phones from the competition they need to provide fantastic hardware. The end result is we get better BQ, better designs and more original takes on the standard phone.

 

[Tunney]

I'm going to sound like an old record here but HTC actively advertise their Sense customisations, and are well regarded for them, look at the reviews of their handsets and you'll find many prefer Sense to stock Android.

Of course. All of the manufacturers advertise their Android customisations. But what else can they advertise? The occasional hardware bump? If they didn't focus advertising on their customisations, they'd just be advertising another black/grey box running Android.

The question is does this engineering effort positively affect sales? Reviews may favour HTC Sense, but how much more is the customer willing to pay for a phone running HTC Sense over a stock Android device?

I doubt Nokia could even differentiate effectively on camera optics. You can't just slap a 12MP camera on a smartphone, the whole software stack needs to be capable of processing the huge files generated.

And despite having the most heavily customised version out there they still beat the established companies on providing major updates, the only phones that get them quicker are the official Google phones.

HTC have done very well. But, what makes you think that Nokia will be able to avoid the mistakes of Sony Ericsson and Samsung and emulate the successes of HTC?

The main problem is that the traditional phone manufacturers aren't good software companies. They use bad tools and have poor processes. Ironically, they often have poor communication networks too.

The culture needed to release Android updates on time is the same culture needed to write your own competitive operating system.

 

[Fegruson]

Really? How many current Android Phones do HTC have on their books ATM, compare that to the 3 WP7 phones they have, same with Samsung.

This is my point - there are only a few between Samsung and HTC, compared to the number of Android handsets they have between them both.

My point being, it would be better Nokia to concentrate on WP7 than Android because of the above.

And I'm not sure the relationship HTC have with MS is all the cushy anymore. HTC have announced $500m profits for the last quarter of 2010. I can't see them wanting to jump right back into MS's pants any time soon

 

[spudbynight]

I want an Android version of the 6310i

 

[Sunbed]

I agree with the former, Android is starting to turn into a race to the bottom (cheapest handsets) and that is never a good thing.

I don't see that as a bad thing - it's good competition and it's probably exactly what Google wants.

 

[Tunney]

Nokia definitely aren't going with Google then.

 

[Amp34]

This is my point - there are only a few between Samsung and HTC, compared to the number of Android handsets they have between them both.

My point being, it would be better Nokia to concentrate on WP7 than Android because of the above.

And I'm not sure the relationship HTC have with MS is all the cushy anymore. HTC have announced $500m profits for the last quarter of 2010. I can't see them wanting to jump right back into MS's pants any time soon

You missed my point. How many Android phones do HTC and Samsung currently sell?

HTC: Desire HD, Desire Z, Wildfire and Desire and Potentially the Legend (although do they actually still sell many?). EDIT: And the Smart.

That's 5 phones, only two released in the last 6 months or so. Compare that to the 4 phones HTC have released in around 4 months with WP7 on (missed the HD7 Pro).

I'm guessing there may be 2 new Android phones at MWC soon to replace the older phones. There may also be a new WP device too. Either way not much difference.

I don't see that as a bad thing - it's good competition and it's probably exactly what Google wants.

It really is. As soon as people start playing with poor Android devices and the user experience suffers it starts to become a problem, especially if they then look over at other peoples smartphones (say a WP7 or iOS device) and compare them.... The higher end devices then get tarred with the same brush because in a lot of peoples minds it's not the hardware, it's the OS.

As an example it currently happens a lot with laptops. People get annoyed at their £400 laptop and start looking at the person sat next to them with their £1k macbook. Obviously it's much better so they buy one, not actually stopping to think that if they spend £1k on a windows laptop then they would get the same performance.

 

[englishpremier]

Competing on hardware alone is a war of attrition. To maximise profits, nokia need to develop their own operating system and unique user experience. Very few of the general public these days buy a phone because of its hardware alone.

 

[Xinn]

You missed my point. How many Android phones do HTC and Samsung currently sell?

HTC: Desire HD, Desire Z, Wildfire and Desire and Potentially the Legend (although do they actually still sell many?). EDIT: And the Smart.

It's a fair few more than that if you count the ones available in the US.

 

[bam0]

Competing on hardware alone is a war of attrition. To maximise profits, nokia need to develop their own operating system and unique user experience. Very few of the general public these days buy a phone because of its hardware alone.

On smartphones they also buy into the software ecosystem, a brand new OS has no apps. A brand new OS from a single manufacturer breaking into the marketplace now? I'm not saying it can't happen but it's not going to be easy.

 

[reefoid]

As soon as people start playing with poor Android devices and the user experience suffers it starts to become a problem, especially if they then look over at other peoples smartphones (say a WP7 or iOS device) and compare them.... The higher end devices then get tarred with the same brush because in a lot of peoples minds it's not the hardware, it's the OS.

Or people will look at other people's higher spec Android handsets and realise, like most technology, you get what you pay for. So next time round they may invest in a higher budget Android handset.