Possibly getting back into biking - advanced riding courses?

[ttaskmaster]

Isn't it common in Sweden for drivers to have mandatory training on dealing with skids - and I'm pretty sure it's not a drifting course.
Theory has its place, but putting things into practice is where you learn

This, exactly, because...

If your bike is at these angles on the road, then it's probably too late to save - it's also likely been caused by something on the road, maybe diesel or summertime ice.... both of which I'm sure this 'training' can't prepare you for, as there's a chance the bike has already gone after hitting them.

And yet, if you're somewhat used to handling your bike at such angles, then when it happens unintentionally you already have a measure of habit and skill that kick in and help keep you in control.
For example, a friend of mine is a pretty experienced and skilled rider, far more capable than I'd say I am... but he really bricks it when riding in high winds and gets blown all over the road, especially on open bridges.
I've ridden alongside him during several such incidents and barely noticed, because I've spent so much time riding in those conditions and learned how to deal with the sudden gusts.

 

[IC3]

This, exactly, because...


And yet, if you're somewhat used to handling your bike at such angles, then when it happens unintentionally you already have a measure of habit and skill that kick in and help keep you in control.
For example, a friend of mine is a pretty experienced and skilled rider, far more capable than I'd say I am... but he really bricks it when riding in high winds and gets blown all over the road, especially on open bridges.
I've ridden alongside him during several such incidents and barely noticed, because I've spent so much time riding in those conditions and learned how to deal with the sudden gusts.

Finally someone understands it!

 

[Scort]

This, exactly, because...


And yet, if you're somewhat used to handling your bike at such angles, then when it happens unintentionally you already have a measure of habit and skill that kick in and help keep you in control.
For example, a friend of mine is a pretty experienced and skilled rider, far more capable than I'd say I am... but he really bricks it when riding in high winds and gets blown all over the road, especially on open bridges.
I've ridden alongside him during several such incidents and barely noticed, because I've spent so much time riding in those conditions and learned how to deal with the sudden gusts.

I feel that you're missing the point though - Moto gymkhana is the extreme end of 'training', in the same vein as saying drifting has a place on the road to control a RWD car. To the point that I HIGHLY doubt anything you'd learn from gymkhana, can be applied on the road; unless of course, they do it on gravel or with summertime ice everywhere - as it becomes real world then. Other than some Red Bull extreme rider maybe, I expect zero riders would get gymkhana angles on the road. I hardly see how a slight gust upsetting a bike mildly, is any way relevant tbh.

It doesn't matter though, OP got some spot on advice from other posters, with examples of training that would actually benefit their riding on the road; so to keep going back over gymkhana as an equally valid path of training, feels like we're wasting each others time.

 

[Scuzi]

@Scort makes the point well. Any form of training is worthwhile, as long as it is applied appropriately in the right environment. There are too many examples where track or other off-road training is used inappropriately on the road leading to incidents. I know of two guys who did track day training and went out and tried to use it on the road. One is dead, the other lost the left side of his face and a bit of his brain.

Skills are like muscles. You need to train regularly and keep exercising them otherwise they degrade. Sporadic moto gymkhana training will be of little use if the first time you need to use it is in a startle situation 9 months after your last session.

Proper advanced rider training on the road is immensely more useful. It is tailored to the environment and you get to practice it regularly, keeping your skills sharp. A well trained advanced rider will not end up in situations where extreme machine inputs are required. They will be avoided before the fact. They will progress at a pace exceeding most other road users with no drama. There will be extreme circumstances that cannot be foreseen but they are very infrequent, and from experience when they do occur, the natural human startle response makes all but the most frequently trained and practiced skills dribble out your ear.

 

[ttaskmaster]

I feel that you're missing the point though - Moto gymkhana is the extreme end of 'training', in the same vein as saying drifting has a place on the road to control a RWD car. To the point that I HIGHLY doubt anything you'd learn from gymkhana, can be applied on the road; unless of course, they do it on gravel or with summertime ice everywhere - as it becomes real world then.

It's simply understanding the limits of your vehicle and being comfortable handling it when at those extremes.
Precise setting is not the factor here, as the same rider skills will come into play whenever those extremes arise. Humans are often pretty capable of extrapolating and adapting skillsets...

As for "slight gust"... well, if slight is being blown across two lanes, I'd hate to see what your idea of strong wind means!
Either way, I handled it better because I was more used to such conditions and more prepared for it happening suddenly.

Any form of training is worthwhile, as long as it is applied appropriately in the right environment. There are too many examples where track or other off-road training is used inappropriately on the road leading to incidents. I know of two guys who did track day training and went out and tried to use it on the road. One is dead, the other lost the left side of his face and a bit of his brain.

Yeah, some things can be adapted to work elsewhere, while others cannot, and others depend on the method of application. Good training will highlight which category those things fall into.
I've known both track-day types and also an IAM instructor, who've all lost their lives due to errors in judgement.

Proper advanced rider training on the road is immensely more useful. It is tailored to the environment and you get to practice it regularly, keeping your skills sharp. A well trained advanced rider will not end up in situations where extreme machine inputs are required. They will be avoided before the fact. They will progress at a pace exceeding most other road users with no drama.

They should... and yet, as mentioned, our local IAM lot have a reputation for seriously overestimating their abilities, as well as forgetting that they're still subject to all the laws of the road... as the Police and the points on their licences keenly remind them.

There will be extreme circumstances that cannot be foreseen but they are very infrequent, and from experience when they do occur, the natural human startle response makes all but the most frequently trained and practiced skills dribble out your ear.

And yet simply reading Roadcraft gave me knowledge that got me out of several situations without any practical training or practice of the skills that effected the escapes...

 

[Paracelsus]

I've done a BikeSafe session with the police, I'd highly recommend it while they're still going, which at the current dwindling numbers of police motorcyclists is possibly not that long.
It's not like a lesson where you're taught how to ride to pass a license test, it's more real-world stuff about keeping out of danger, assertive riding, positioning for maximum visibility etc.
As an example I was told off on mine for going back into the 1st lane on the motorway too much after passing, the idea being stay overtaking and minimise movement between lanes.
They're cheap and of course you get to ride around with a police escort for a few hours, which is a novel experience

Also worth giving Roadcraft a read too, it's what Police riding is based on.

 

[Hades]

I've done a BikeSafe session with the police, I'd highly recommend it while they're still going, which at the current dwindling numbers of police motorcyclists is possibly not that long.
It's not like a lesson where you're taught how to ride to pass a license test, it's more real-world stuff about keeping out of danger, assertive riding, positioning for maximum visibility etc.
As an example I was told off on mine for going back into the 1st lane on the motorway too much after passing, the idea being stay overtaking and minimise movement between lanes.
They're cheap and of course you get to ride around with a police escort for a few hours, which is a novel experience

Also worth giving Roadcraft a read too, it's what Police riding is based on.

Thank you. I will take a look.

If/when I do get a bike again I think I'll get a days lesson with a local instructor before buying one (as I will be very rusty) and then after getting the bike I will do something like this. I'm starting to really want to get back on a bike although not sure how I will feel if I do.

 

[IC3]

Thank you. I will take a look.

If/when I do get a bike again I think I'll get a days lesson with a local instructor before buying one (as I will be very rusty) and then after getting the bike I will do something like this. I'm starting to really want to get back on a bike although not sure how I will feel if I do.

I would do the lesson first and then make the decision if you want another bike.

 

[Humpty]

I've been riding for years. Done BikeSafe, FireBike, RosPA, training with private instructors etc., etc. Far and away the best training that I have ever had is with Rapid. It's expensive but you will be riding with hugely experienced instructors who train you in real-world riding on UK roads. Best biking money I've ever spent was doing BikeMaster with Rapid.

 

[Hades]

I've been riding for years. Done BikeSafe, FireBike, RosPA, training with private instructors etc., etc. Far and away the best training that I have ever had is with Rapid. It's expensive but you will be riding with hugely experienced instructors who train you in real-world riding on UK roads. Best biking money I've ever spent was doing BikeMaster with Rapid.

Thanks for the recommendation.

 

[Tefal]

Thank you. I will take a look.

If/when I do get a bike again I think I'll get a days lesson with a local instructor before buying one (as I will be very rusty) and then after getting the bike I will do something like this. I'm starting to really want to get back on a bike although not sure how I will feel if I do.

What kind of bikes have you been looking at. My Honda crf300l gets used loads now as its so light and forgiving it's perfect for ****** weather and only 27hp so you can thrash it a bit and it's all still very stable. If you get bored woth it ktm smcr is same weight but 3-4x the power same big bars bit full size road tires

 

[Humpty]

What kind of bikes have you been looking at. My Honda crf300l gets used loads now as its so light and forgiving it's perfect for ****** weather and only 27hp so you can thrash it a bit and it's all still very stable. If you get bored woth it ktm smcr is same weight but 3-4x the power same big bars bit full size road tires

I'd agree with that. I've got a few bikes of all capacities but I often find myself taking the GS310 in preference to one of the others because it's so easy and so much fun.

 

[Hades]

What kind of bikes have you been looking at. My Honda crf300l gets used loads now as its so light and forgiving it's perfect for ****** weather and only 27hp so you can thrash it a bit and it's all still very stable. If you get bored woth it ktm smcr is same weight but 3-4x the power same big bars bit full size road tires

I'm really not sure.

My bike was a Triumph Bonneville T120 which was written off. I don't feel I have finished with the Bonneville experience yet, but don't necessarily just want to get the same bike again. It seems a good opportunity to change it up a bit and try a different bike.

I don't want a sports bike so have been looking at either another modern classic like the Bonneville or possibly a smaller adventure style bike. For what I want to do the adventure/tourer would be better. I would like to use it for tours around the UK, occasional commuting (not much) and mostly weekend coffee jaunts. I also don't want to spend a huge amount of money (I will be buying used) and do want to use it more into winter and poorer weather (I would avoid bad weather on the Bonneville because of cleaning all the chrome again afterwards). Something like the Honda CB500X comes to mind although I think that might be just a little under powered for motorways. If it had another 10hp then it would be perfect. My brother suggested an older BMW GS but that might be a little big for what I'm looking for. On the modern classic front then maybe another from the Bonneville range or something from Royal Enfield.

That Honda crf300l is something to consider too, although probably not for touring (didn't Itchy Boots use one for touring though?)

I really don't know at this stage.

 

[IC3]

I've been riding for years. Done BikeSafe, FireBike, RosPA, training with private instructors etc., etc. Far and away the best training that I have ever had is with Rapid. It's expensive but you will be riding with hugely experienced instructors who train you in real-world riding on UK roads. Best biking money I've ever spent was doing BikeMaster with Rapid.

He would need a bike for that course though?

 

[Humpty]

He would need a bike for that course though?

Yes, that's right. My comment was more in terms of excellent training but you do need your own bike for most post-test training and certainly for the Rapid courses.

 

[Humpty]

I'm really not sure.

My bike was a Triumph Bonneville T120 which was written off. I don't feel I have finished with the Bonneville experience yet, but don't necessarily just want to get the same bike again. It seems a good opportunity to change it up a bit and try a different bike.

I don't want a sports bike so have been looking at either another modern classic like the Bonneville or possibly a smaller adventure style bike. For what I want to do the adventure/tourer would be better. I would like to use it for tours around the UK, occasional commuting (not much) and mostly weekend coffee jaunts. I also don't want to spend a huge amount of money (I will be buying used) and do want to use it more into winter and poorer weather (I would avoid bad weather on the Bonneville because of cleaning all the chrome again afterwards). Something like the Honda CB500X comes to mind although I think that might be just a little under powered for motorways. If it had another 10hp then it would be perfect. My brother suggested an older BMW GS but that might be a little big for what I'm looking for. On the modern classic front then maybe another from the Bonneville range or something from Royal Enfield.

That Honda crf300l is something to consider too, although probably not for touring (didn't Itchy Boots use one for touring though?)

I really don't know at this stage.

The reason that I posted and recommended Rapid training was because the comment in your original post:

With both cars and bikes I've always had the attitude that even if something is 100% the other drivers fault then there are usually ways to reduce the risk to yourself.

I completely agree with that sentiment and that is a large part of the focus of advanced training. Most decent trainers are keen bikers themselves and have that 'biking community' spirit. Why not find an advanced trainer in your area and give them a call. Tell them your story and see what they recommend? They may have a bike that you could ride for a lesson so you can see how you feel about it. They would also be able to recommend a suitable bike.

 

[Hades]

The reason that I posted and recommended Rapid training was because the comment in your original post:



I completely agree with that sentiment and that is a large part of the focus of advanced training. Most decent trainers are keen bikers themselves and have that 'biking community' spirit. Why not find an advanced trainer in your area and give them a call. Tell them your story and see what they recommend? They may have a bike that you could ride for a lesson so you can see how you feel about it. They would also be able to recommend a suitable bike.

Thank you. Good suggestion.

 

[Tefal]

I'm really not sure.

My bike was a Triumph Bonneville T120 which was written off. I don't feel I have finished with the Bonneville experience yet, but don't necessarily just want to get the same bike again. It seems a good opportunity to change it up a bit and try a different bike.

I don't want a sports bike so have been looking at either another modern classic like the Bonneville or possibly a smaller adventure style bike. For what I want to do the adventure/tourer would be better. I would like to use it for tours around the UK, occasional commuting (not much) and mostly weekend coffee jaunts. I also don't want to spend a huge amount of money (I will be buying used) and do want to use it more into winter and poorer weather (I would avoid bad weather on the Bonneville because of cleaning all the chrome again afterwards). Something like the Honda CB500X comes to mind although I think that might be just a little under powered for motorways. If it had another 10hp then it would be perfect. My brother suggested an older BMW GS but that might be a little big for what I'm looking for. On the modern classic front then maybe another from the Bonneville range or something from Royal Enfield.

That Honda crf300l is something to consider too, although probably not for touring (didn't Itchy Boots use one for touring though?)

I really don't know at this stage.

Yeah she tours on one, I've found it decent for longish distance especially if you change the knoblie tyres to something rounder.

Something like the royal Enfield himalayan might be the ticket. I haven't ridden one but they are comfy to sit on and I know somone who has the continental gt from them and it lives outside has less rust than my kawasaki or my Honda that live in a garage and looks smart for the money.

There is the crf 300 rally too which has more fairings windscreen and luggage options. Kriega do a bespoke fitting kit for thier touring luggage for the Honda too

 

[henry hoov3r]

A bit of a left field suggestion but it was the path i took after a few near misses on the road. How about doing some track days? You can start in novice and go as fast or slow as you like. You are in a controlled environment obviously its not totally risk free but there’s nothing coming the other way. After a day at the track it scratched that itch for me.

 

[Sin_Chase]

I am a Roadcraft trained rider with real world application and I echo Scuzi's comments. Even the full fat Police Roadcraft is mostly transferable to civilian riding and there is less emergency response and pursuit specific elements to it than you might think.

It's not just the system of Vehicle Control but the mindset behind it. Being able to enhance your information intake is one of the biggest things that you can do to improve your safety on the road, not the actual practical riding elements. If you can plan for POTENTIAL hazards (Not just the ones that have already revealed themselves) you are 1 step ahead.

Whilst buying a copy of Roadcraft and reading it will be very helpful there is something to be said for on the road training and observation by another.

A couple of things I have picked up through the years:
Eye contact - Does the person who is about to pull into your path/join the carrigeway etc have eye contact with you? If not, be doubly cautious.

Assessing Movement - Other vehicles wheels make one of the better reference points at distance to establish any movement from a stationary position. The spokes of an alloy will show movement far quicker than trying to asses against bodywork.

Gut Feeling - Have a feeling that someone is about to do something silly? There is normally a reason for that and you should trust your instict rather than ignore it.

Information - Is King. Indication, Brake Lights (Or lack of), Steering angle, What the driver/occupant of a vehicle is doing, Speed (And variation of it), Lights, Signs, Road Markings, Sounds, Smells, People waiting at Bus Requests (Or not). You cant ride on autopilot if you want to pickup and use these cues. IF you really hone your skill onto information gathering you can, at times, feel like you have super human prediction powers. When that perosn does EXACTLY what you predicted them to and you already mitigated against it.


Also, if you want to see if another rider is potentially Roadcraft trained then see which foot they put down on the floor whilst stationary