Power/Weight Thread

I hate this new forum I find it hard to see where there are new posts so I've missed these!

Did you get Vector 1's touch? I find the same as you by the way, when I am pushing hard on the pedals I always always get 50/50 but when spinning away I end up putting 1-2% more through the right pedal.

SoliD - WKO4 is a learning curve. 2 weeks you'll just be getting hang of it there is so much to it! For a free trial absolutely get it downloaded and give it a bash it will give you very good information on the mFTP and the TTE model data alone so it's worth trying it.
I tried it out and even I felt out my depth after customising and mucking around with Golden Cheetah for so long. I ended up quite happy uninstalling after the trial and using the simple mans TP Premium in the browser and continuing with GC. My coach is doing everything in WKO4 though for me so I really didn't even need it or to worry about it but I couldn't help seeing it for myself. When I went down and seen him he took me through a lot of things on it and it's insanely powerful if you learn it and take the time!
 
xdcx said:
Did you get Vector 1's touch? I find the same as you by the way, when I am pushing hard on the pedals I always always get 50/50 but when spinning away I end up putting 1-2% more through the right pedal.
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Vector 2. (with nasty look cleats :( )

Could it be the torque settings causing dropouts? The garmin fitting video I watched on youtube said that under-torquing them may cause them to underread power but I wouldnt have expected 20 seconds of reading 0w?
 
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xdcx said:
I hate this new forum I find it hard to see where there are new posts so I've missed these!

Did you get Vector 1's touch? I find the same as you by the way, when I am pushing hard on the pedals I always always get 50/50 but when spinning away I end up putting 1-2% more through the right pedal.

SoliD - WKO4 is a learning curve. 2 weeks you'll just be getting hang of it there is so much to it! For a free trial absolutely get it downloaded and give it a bash it will give you very good information on the mFTP and the TTE model data alone so it's worth trying it.
I tried it out and even I felt out my depth after customising and mucking around with Golden Cheetah for so long. I ended up quite happy uninstalling after the trial and using the simple mans TP Premium in the browser and continuing with GC. My coach is doing everything in WKO4 though for me so I really didn't even need it or to worry about it but I couldn't help seeing it for myself. When I went down and seen him he took me through a lot of things on it and it's insanely powerful if you learn it and take the time!
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Even after following your guides I had no idea with GC really, much happier with TP, I'm still learning and not looking so much into it currently as I'm seeing some gains so far this season, but trying to learn and pick stuff up from it. Will have a look at WK04, will see how long the free trial is for, may pick it up as the weather/clocks turn for maximum usage.

touch said:
Vector 2. (with nasty look cleats :( )

Could it be the torque settings causing dropouts? The garmin fitting video I watched on youtube said that under-torquing them may cause them to underread power but I wouldnt have expected 20 seconds of reading 0w?
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I'd completely remove them, reinstall and turn off all your other sensors and give it another go.
 
Seems odd for dropouts to only occur during your 20 min test segment. Try some shorter drills at similar or higher power and see if it continues? Nothing at all during your 5 min clearing effort.

Presumably whatever device you recorded the ride on didn't show any of this at the time?

No experience with Vectors but I'd expect any torque issues to effect the accuracy of the reading and not whether or not you get one at all!
 
Touch - I was horrified having to move to Keo cleats but now wouldn't go back, I far prefer them! Changing is the pain but they are good.
Torque wise, I doubt it. My V1's and V2's both just get chucked on and tightened to "tight" without any much more thought haha. Have you updated their firmware? If you don't have the ANT+ dongle for PC to do the firmware I have one and we can use it do update yours any time just let me know.

SoliD - GC just seemed a lot more customisable UI wise to me so I could strip it right back and re-build with all the data presented how I wanted across what screens I wanted. WKO4 is a lot busier and locked in, so I struggled with it. The trial via TP is 2 weeks for members, so give it a bash and see how you get on. Nothing to lose! Even if it it plots your TTE and gives you a mFTP it has been a worthwhile task as those are handy information to have and it will be accurate/relevant to your training the second you fire all your data into it.
 
BennyC said:
Seems odd for dropouts to only occur during your 20 min test segment. Try some shorter drills at similar or higher power and see if it continues? Nothing at all during your 5 min clearing effort.

Presumably whatever device you recorded the ride on didn't show any of this at the time?
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Yep, this was the first time i've used them so i'll try them a few more times to see how things go.
I'm using an edge 500 and I did notice the dropouts at the time but with a 10sec avg power display they didnt look as bad at the time as they do on the strava graph.
I might try using my phone to record some stuff and see if it's a problem with the edge. I did get a couple of dropouts very occasionally with my powertap but I could never match up the dropout when I noticed it with a dropout in the graph on strava so i always thought it was the edge doing that. The vector dropouts seem to be different.

xdcx said:
Touch - I was horrified having to move to Keo cleats but now wouldn't go back, I far prefer them! Changing is the pain but they are good.
Torque wise, I doubt it. My V1's and V2's both just get chucked on and tightened to "tight" without any much more thought haha. Have you updated their firmware? If you don't have the ANT+ dongle for PC to do the firmware I have one and we can use it do update yours any time just let me know.
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I used Keo cleats when I started cycling. Didn't really think too much about it because I didnt have anything to compare it with at the time but when I swapped to SPD-SL I found them much better. The only difference really is when walking around, the larger cleat of SPD-SL with better grips on it is so much easier to walk in. I dont really notice any difference when riding in them tbh.
The good thing is i'll be able to use my own shoes with the hire bikes at the velodrome now :)

Didnt update the firmware but I did get the usb stick with them so i'll give it a go. I'm not really one for doing up pedals 'tight' and I could tell from the video that the guy had done his up (using a torque wrench) significantly tighter than I had. But like Benny said, I would expect an incorrect torque setting to give consistently incorrect data, not drop to 0w for a few seconds.
The other thing i'd thought about was the calibration. It needs a few pedal turns to 'calibrate the pedal angle'? Maybe lost that somehow and recalibrated itself?
 
Definitely update the firmware!
They are to be done pretty tight. My Keo 2 Max on the bike on the Kickr I basically do just beyond finger tight with allen key but I do the Vectors pretty damn tight... This is because I didn't do them tight enough at first and had some funny play going on which annoyed the Vector 2 pedal pod and it moved round and was contacting my foot (this issue wasn't possible on Vector 1's). So I now put the pedals pretty damn tight but not excessive at all and I do the bolts on the pod damn tight also so nothing moves at all and they are fine.

Disconnect the pods for a few mins, reconnect them and do the whole spin up to 85RPM nonsense again to calibrate the angles. Then do the unclipped calibration. After you do the firmware that is. They should be 100% after that. If not I seriously would be troubleshooting your head unit I think.
 
Roady said:
@xdcx update peoples data in first post numbnuts! ;)
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Only you, Roady, could ignore the actual template used by EVERYONE to post their data and then hotlink it to ****.
I've updated you on page 1 and I am on my way to Herewherever to slap your wrists.

I am doing a 20min test at 17:00 just so everyone can prepare for the tremors that may be felt across the globe.
 
touch said:
I demand live streaming!
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Didn't see your post till now. Some of us bugger off home at 15:55 you know! :p

20mins = smack on 5w/kg. 10w increase since last one 6 weeks ago.
There is another 5 watts there just now, it was a poor test as I was either hammering 101-103RPM or 89-90RPM on bigger gear. Need to look at changing resistance manually on the Kickr I think as my happy place is 94-98RPM which is a hell of a more efficient.
 
Strong!

I can't remember where but I was reading quite an interesting article or post about the effect of higher RPM and aerobic load. Over 100 or under 90 doesn't feel great for me either, leaning more toward the lower end of 90.
 
BennyC said:
Strong!

I can't remember where but I was reading quite an interesting article or post about the effect of higher RPM and aerobic load. Over 100 or under 90 doesn't feel great for me either, leaning more toward the lower end of 90.
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It is very individual but for me (and probably yourself by sound of it) at <90RPM my leg muscles are grinding and taking a hammering. V02 system is fine at that. I finished that 20mins last night and my legs were screaming but my HR was about 10BPM lower than I would expect and my lungs recovered instantly, dare I say I didn't even feel I had worked hard.... During the first few mins of >100RPM though my HR was rising faster than I would wanted and my breathing was hectic as the lungs and V02 system are taking the hammering and your leg muscles are idling. 94-98RPM is the sweet spot for me to utilise both systems most efficiently.
 
Yep, I'd previously been all about dat der spin from what I'd been reading/seeing but actually find maintaining 100+rpm with a considerable power out just increases aerobic load unnecessarily. And as you say finding that balance sweet spot between muscular & aerobic capacity is very individual.

I attempted an FTP recently, for the first time in yonks, to try and quantify recent gains and the combination of too high a cadence (and possibly power) during my clearing effort and continuing a 100+rpm cadence for the first 10 minutes of the 20 minute effort saw my HR much higher than I would have liked so early on and left me feeling nauseous.

I noticed TrainerRoad include the 2 x 8 minute test on their revised Training Plans and think that this might be a more suitable protocol for me to ballpark FTP on. Granted as has been discussed FTP might not have the most practical application (a bit like BMI for bodyweight) but it's a commonly accepted standardised metric.

Found it:
Think about it this way. Imagine your bike crank was not connected to a drive train and you were just spinning in circles putting zero watts to the road riding at 95 RPM. You'd still be consuming energy even though your powertap picks up zero watts (imagine a snapped chain). So there is some metabilic cost moving the mass of your legs around and I'd imagine that it is higher at 95 RPM than 70 RPM....the question is "how much work are we amortizing those additional revolutions over"

If you ride at 70 RPM and put out 250W then your body put 17.5 Kilojoules of work to the road in a minute. If you rode at 250W at 90 RPM, you'd have moved the mass of your legs around for 20 more revolutions to put the same 17.6 Kilojoules to the road.

This is probably why RAAM riders select low cadences, because it just ends up being inefficient to move your legs through that many circles at low crank torque putting out low watts....the body just ends up self selecting what is optimal. Most guys seem to have a higher average RPM for a 1 hour TT compared to a full Ironman too.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/S...F1/FTP_cadence_vs._race_day_cadence_P4313795/
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xdcx said:
Only you, Roady, could ignore the actual template used by EVERYONE to post their data and then hotlink it to ****.
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Teehehehe, sorry I missed the template, just included what data to update in my original data :p
touch said:
I demand live streaming!
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Live screaming...?
xdcx said:
20mins = smack on 5w/kg. 10w increase since last one 6 weeks ago.
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Yeah but that's <300W as we all know you weigh under 60kg! ;)

Also my 20 min NP is now around 299W but don't worry, I'll do an FTP test soon for more numbers to update as I'm also a couple of years older too :p
 
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xdcx said:
20mins = smack on 5w/kg. 10w increase since last one 6 weeks ago.
There is another 5 watts there just now, it was a poor test as I was either hammering 101-103RPM or 89-90RPM on bigger gear.
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That's good power. Get yourself entered into the Suie RR. That'll be some easy points for you, 4 big climbs with hilltop finish on the last. Cat 3/4.
 
310w was my watts for 20mins @ 61kg just now. I will be racing around 60kg and well on track for 320w 20mins in 6 weeks. The problem for me is laying that down in 10's. The goal this season will be >300w for a 10 and aero gains where possible. I reckon that's more than good enough for sub 21 this season. >5W/KG is superb, if you can match it with position. Super aero and that power is sharp end at majority Scottish races.

I have entered Dunfermline and Suie dude. Hopefully one of them will give me an entry! My climbing is nowhere near a patch on previous years but my power and strength is way ahead... so it's a matter of conditioning which is much easier to achieve when the founds are there. Have you entered Dunf/Suie?
 
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