Power/Weight Thread

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All non existent for clarity!

Amstel Gold this Sunday, probably won't be the same level of commitment from myself to watch 98% of the race.

AG was one of the best races last year! Racing about Dutch housing estates just doesn't have the same appeal as muddy cobbles through fields at all but it is still a great tactical race.

Galopin versus Gilbert, I want to see a showdown!

 

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I'm finally jumping into the Golden Cheetah ring! Will get some power stats updated soon enough. Weight is down to 65kg now, probably on fresh legs I reckon I could do about 252 to 255W for an hour at the moment.

Spend the time with it and learn it and you will never look back
Give me a shout if any questions with GC, I don't want to admit the time I have spent tinkering and learning

 

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Will do. Got a friend that's smashing it using the aero stuff to test position/kit changes and generally winning/top 3 in almost all opens he is entering and says he is seeing the benefits for the same power.

What's the best resource to get the basics laid out for me?

I've not touched the aerolab but that will be changing very shortly dare I say I can't wait to waste too much life on it at same time as I am dreading it ha!

Here is the guide I made for my PMC which I can't find ways of bettering now really, it's super handy for tracking your usuals but also for linking back to ride level via TSS on the same chart - https://imgur.com/a/njEPN

By basics being laid out do you mean baseline understanding of the likes of ATL, CTL and TSS? CP and FTP etc? Or do you already understand these terms and looking for basics of getting the software to a useable place?

 

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snip

Glad the guide worked OK, hope the links within were useful to the TP site to describe ATL, CTL, TSS etc for you

Excellent links, thanks! Aero guff is going to be my next time sink, so please continue to play with it so I can come and pester you

I was riding my winter bike with no power meter for a long time until recently, so you are correct this will not give you TSS and chart your PMC. Your best bet is to honestly just enter a manual estimated TSS for these rides as they are stressing your body and you should incorporate these no matter what so you can properly see where your body is at.... Google around for TSS calculators, I would say the best way of going about this with no power data is to base it on heart rate time zones / time on bike and RPE. You'll get to grips quickly with estimated TSS especially on commutes as they are likely very close time and RPE wise each day.

 

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xdcx, is there anyway to easily download files automatically to GC, or is it a case of having to sync every couple of days? Bit of a pain when my 1000 is linked directly to strava and never really gets plugged into my PC.

Also when adding data for estimated stress, it's triscore to affect my chart right?

Hmmm, I think you are out of luck as there is no way of downloading data from Strava and into GC. Does the 1000 have WiFi or Bluetooth setup to your phone or AP in your house and just auto uploads when you get home? I don't think there is anything you can do, you will need the .fit files imported to GC so you are stuck taking files off the device unfortunately On that note, since you are starting with it now, it would be a good idea to get it configured to use Dropbox so you can sync across devices in future and have a backup of your data. I have a sort of "best practice" way I done this that works very well, want me to write that up for you (be handy anyway for others etc). Let me know if you plan using Dropbox with it.

Do you use Training Peaks also?

TriScore I believe (correct me if wrong) is a metric for combination of stresses across multi sport/tri so run/swim/bike? Are you putting anything other than cycling data into GC? If not, I can tell you how to add TSS metric so you can manipulate this on each ride you put into GC, I only use TSS itself as I only put cycling data in and you could just use TSS also for all sports but I guess TriScore is a totally different metric in itself and way of calculating and plotting training stress.

 

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In my heart of hearts I know I should buy Tripsockz but my god they look triantelope-tastic.

No way man. Oil up those pale freshly shaven pins of yours and show them with pride. Calf sleeve things most definitely result in nothing but pure insult and judgemental tutting from me

 

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Doh, yeah Edge1000 automatically uploads to connect which then transfer directly to strava automatically. I have used tapiriik in the past but can't remember if I set up Drop Box, but happy to start as I always thought what if strava or something went away, I'd have no record of where I've been!

No Training Peaks here, makes sense about the Triscore, I'm only using cycling data, I do some running in the winter but won't import that. I wanted to edit TSS in GC, but couldn't find the option, but when I estimated power it put a score in triscore for my commute that matched previous similar commutes where power was measured.

Ah OK, yeah I forgot all about Garmin Connect! I stopped using it a very long time ago, it was just yet another man in the middle sorta place to upload to which seemed pointless. I upload to Strava from my device, then I import to GC and from there I use shortcut keys to sync it to Dropbox and then upload to TrainingPeaks. If I am on the turbo I am using Zwift which links to Strava, so when I finish on there it saves to Zwift and Strava itself, I then download the .fit from Zwift and import to GC > sync to Dropbox and upload to TrainingPeaks.

I have done a guide on how to add the TSS metric for manual entry here mate - http://imgur.com/a/dwotN

Let me know how that works and if it is OK please? You are my guinea pig

I will do a Dropbox one also, will post that this afternoon for you

 

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Strava now I've signed up for premium gives me an estimated FTP.

352w! That's 4.4w/kg at the minute, I'm 4kg over what I was in Dec when I dieted right down for a 3 day hilly stage race. I'm more of a classics rider now, and it is coming into winter so a few kg extra insulation doesn't hurt.

Strava estimates my 60min FTP @ 5.51w/kg......

 

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Garmin Connect uploads are all automated, so saves me hardly ever plugging in my Edge apart from for charging!

Just set this up, is there any way I can check previous workouts for their TSS, so I can use that as I don't do HR in the AM. Commutes are always going to be 90% within a similar range as only 5.5mile and usually done at a certain low intensity.

Just had a check and I do have Dropbox set up and activities syncing to this from Garmin.

Ah cool, it may be worth considering GC syncing to Dropbox as this will contain all TSS data and such whereas Garmin Connect syncing will just be the non-manipulated .fit's.

Regards your morning rides with no power or HR data. Tough one, I would honestly just look at some warmups or cooldowns you may have done that had HR and power data and then use that as a basis to create a TSS scale fo your own for morning rides to work and base your TSS estimates for these on perceived effort/time of commute..... So if you get your TSS from a ride with power that was a super easy recovery spin for 30mins say and that was 10TSS, use that as a basis to create a scale for your commutes so a hard into the wind 5 mile commute one morning nets you 8TSS and a super easy wind behind you pootle home gets you 4TSS.

It's not accurate, it's not perfect but it gives you something to gauge your week. If it was me, I'd probably just get lazy and put a average TSS number on every commute ride that gave me a same total of TSS each week just from commuting. Sorry I am not much help here but hopefully some food for thought in giving you a standard and set way of managing it.

 

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I've used power on commutes when I had the pedals on so can use those efforts in the past, just couldn't see in GC where TSS is listed. My commute is flat and one direction with generally wind going the same way every day, so effort wise is easy in the mornings, slightly harder in the evenings, so would no doubt balance out.

Ah OK, didn't realise you couldn't see TSS, I have totally overlooked this sorry mate. Do this in GC:

Tools > Options > Metrics tab > Summary Tab
On the left you have "available metrics", on the right you have "selected metrics".
Select the following metrics from the Available on left - TSS, IF, NP - then click on the right arrow in the middle of the window to shift them over to your selected metrics pane.
Hit Save.

Now when you select an activity in GC, up the top on your summary tab you will see the headings as Totals - Averages - Maximums - Metrics - Model...... Underneath the Metrics heading on the summary you should see your CTL, ATL, TSB, RR, TSS, IF, NP for the selected ride = job done!

FYI, in my selected Metrics pane I have TSS, IF, NP, Estimated VO2 and Left/Right Balance as I have Garmin Vectors so it is handy.

Let me know if that works ok and my instructions are clear enough, but that will allow you to see your TSS and NP etc for any ride on the summary screen when you select it in activities tab

Edit, screenies -

 

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First aero testing today xdcx. I think it failed miserably! Will have to refine my technique.

My new toy is here so I will be joining you ASAP Pics tonight somewhere on here.

What failed miserably? Aerolab usage?
I've got a wee strava route I have created, it is 3k's out and 3k's back on decent road, quietish area and would have me going very slightly uphill then very slightly downhill on way back so in line with the article you posted about using a "half pipe" almost course elevation wise. Looking forward to spending WAY too much hours on this ****

 

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I've made this one a sticky. To be honest I'm not really sure about the aero/gains thread. I'll have a think/read through.

How about you just do as I tell you???? HUH?

 

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Wheres this dropbox guide

Ah, sorry man. I thought you said you had Connect syncing into Dropbox? That's why I didn't bother! If I thought you needed the guide it would have been written and online when I promised it. Sorry!

 

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xdcx, not sure if it was in this thread or not, but do you have a resouce that can be used to estimate TSS based off HR, got my CX race yesterday but obviously no power, so want to try to estimate fatigue.

Of course

http://spinloose.co.uk/wp/workout-tss-calculator/

 

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Your output on the road will be higher than on a turbo. You are definitely not alone on this boat.

I completely changed in belief regard FTP testing and now say FTP testing should be done on the turbo as it is the only enviro you can properly level for each and every test to accurately measure increase/decrease in output.

I've produced 343w on the road for 20 odd minutes but my best on the turbo for 20mins is 313w.

I don't think doing testing on the road should be disregarded if someone wants to do it that way but they should do their upmost for fairness and true progression value on themselves as an individual by ensuring they make their road testing as identical and comparative as they can each and every time. Easily achievable you might think by using the same bit of road but weather/time of day etc are all then factors outside.

 

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CP, Critical Power, 20mins.
FTP, Functional Threshold Power, 60mins.

FTP typically calculated as CP x 0.95. If pure diesel endurance machine I'd use that calc, for most average folks I would say use x 0.94 and some use x 0.93 if you now your endurance is lacking somewhat.

20mins typically used as basis to establish estimated FTP 60mins as getting somewhere and conditions to do a full 60min solo is a ball ache. Unless it's a 25TT where you will have the perfect chance to get a full near to 60mins power down. But 20min as above can be fully controlled and done on turbo on a regular basis to monitor progress etc.

I personally don't think CP8's and CP12's (8min and 12min) should be used as a testing protocol. They should be used as @ CP sessions or FTP+10% sessions. 20 mins is short of the majorities 10TT time so has some relevance to most people regards being an actual amount of time you may spend at that threshold. 8 and 12 minute is just too short then calculate CP and FTP from in my opinion so really cannot see the benefit in it for testing.

316watts @ 75KG as your CP should roughly work out to around 4w/kg (300watts) for FTP. Based on your numbers and for forward training a good goal that is tough but achievable would be to drop your weight to 75kg (not saying you need to lose weight!! purely because you mentioned it!) and achieve your 300watts for a 20min test. Dropping to 75KG alone boosts your W/KG so much, if you can maintain and add 10-20watts as well as drop the weight over the next 8 weeks, you are doing something very right!
Enjoy it and good luck

 

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I remember reading a while ago that a very broad approximation for running w/kg is your speed in m/s on flat ground i.e. 4m/s is 4w/kg. No idea how accurate that is but 4w/kg is what I would consider a good level of cycling fitness and translates to a near 40 min 10km which again seems like a good standard. Maybe our resident triantelopes could chip in?

I don't think that can be correct
4m/s is approx 6:40 per mile. 4w/kg is pretty good standard in cycling for a decent club rider but 6:40 minute per mile for a decent club runner is easy/steady running.
6:40 or 4m/s is only worth a 41:30 10K. Sub 38 is what I would class as an OK standard alongside 4w/kg being decent standard so can see these mismatch quite a bit at that level.

However.... playing about with numbers as I write, it might not actually be that out there!
My 5K pace when fit was 5:10 per mile which = 5.20m/s
My 5K best was 15:50 or thereabouts so ties in with my last 20min test I done on the bike which was 5.11w/kg.

10K wise I done a 33:00 which is 5:18 minute miling and 5.06m/s. So using logic to that would equate to a roughly 5w/kg equiv on the bike.

I think this becomes a closer comparative the higher each metric goes but yeah, could be very very broad way of comparing the two.

 

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Last month I finally PB'd 5K and 10K. 17:56 and 37:01 respectively.

My FTP however hasn't ever been measured at 4W/kg. I think my Stages is b0rked, clearly under-reads.

Sub 18 and sub 38 seriously good standards. You'll go quicker over 10k, sure I spoke to you about that before
Ahh Stages, you're definitely putting out 30watts more on the leg it isn't measuring

 

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Conditions and how you feel are just as fundamental with running as they are for bike racing/TT'ing. I ran 15:30 on a training run for 5K, then went altitude training for 3 weeks, came back fitter than ever but felt rubbish and ran a 16:05 in the Scottish Nashy 5k. It's all so relevant to your on the day condition but reckon your 5 and 10 times will come down. I would focus on the 10k though!

Local race wise back then it was rapid enough for wins and top 3's but the guys I was consistently beating with no problem have been working as part of the training group I got up and running prior to my injury and they are now regularly running sub 32's.... If I was still running I would have been running 30's for 10K and looking at top 15 national XC up here and stuff as I had proper potential with my running It still really depresses me now looking back on it all and to what "could have been"....

 

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Well based on those calculations I should have a cycling ftp of at least 203w at 3.7w/kg so I guess there's work to do. My main problem is I tend to put quantity over quality. I've done over 400hrs of running and riding this year equating to 3000 miles of cycling and 1500 miles of running.

You're a skinny minny (not a bad thing!) and from that split of cycling/running you are actually more focused to running I would say. Take that into equation with your weight also you are not going to push big FTP numbers doing both.... Unless you are a full time athlete!

I trained a lot with a guy who wanted so hard to be a triathlete, but worked full time as a solicitor so I eventually got the point one day when he was moaning about struggling to break 18mins for 5k when so fit and told him that he doesn't have the time or the physical capability to train for all 3. His best bet was to focus on the sport he enjoyed the most if he wanted to be competitive at any of them. He decided running was his thing, something I agree'd with, and he is running a hell of a quicker now over 5k and is competitive on local scene.... Sure he enjoyed doing all 3, but it was a proper jack of all trades situation which was enjoyable but he would never be competitive. The compromise was to focus mainly on cycling but still do swimming and cycling for fun/cross train/recovery.

Shamrock will know better than me but if you could push 3.5w/kg and run a 38min 10K in a duathlon that is likely bloody good standards is it not?

Whereas in a road race on the bike, 3.5w/kg will see you dropped swiftly and a 38min road 10k will not even see you top 50 at decent club level races. so all these things have to be taken with relevance to the people you are competing against and the specialisms they focus on versus the specific race you are targeting.