You should really read articles by people that specialise in football finance and legal matters, not football romantics like Henry Winter who doesn't understand the complexities of what's being proposed. But you'd rather stick your head in the sand and believe that there was no valid reasons for Newcastle's Saudi takeover being challenged.
Poll: Premier League Shake-Up?
- Thread starter BaZ87
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Steve Parish, owner of Crystal Palace gave his views on helping out the EFL the other week. He compared it to asking a supermarket to bail out a corner shop. There's this weird fascination about pointing the blame for the EFL's struggles at the top sides but lets be crystal clear, none of the PL clubs want to help them. It's 6 months from when the EFL pleaded for a bail out neither the government or the PL have come up with anything. This is the one proposal on the table to save the EFL.
Thanks mate but we can just revisit the Newcastle takeover thread if you want to justify everything I've just said to you. I lost count of the amount of times I tried to explain basic things to you and you'd reply with "they can't do that" or "it's done mate". How did that work out?
Henry Winter is a football journalist, he's not an expert in finance or law. There are journalists that are experts in these areas and will provide far better insight into the realities and consequences of this proposal. You don't care about that though, he put a line in his article about Newcastle and it's given you something to complain about, at least admit that.
If you want to understand about these proposals and what they'll mean then read articles by Matt Slater in the Athletic, Tariq Panja for the New York Times, David Conn for the Guardian or Ben Rumsby in the Telegraph. This is their area, they know what can and can't be done and what the long term effects of this proposal might be.
Who is being bribed? The EFL clubs want this deal. The only losers from this deal would be the clubs outside the big 6 and this is where talks need to begin, to find a solution that suits as many of those clubs as possible.
To be clear, what I said regarding the top 6 making the League was in regards to driving the finance. You could make up an 18 or 20 team League with those 6 + whichever mix of clubs from the rest of the PL and Championship and there would be no meaningful difference to the success of the League. Broadcasters aren't paying billions for Burnley, Southampton or whoever else - it's those 6 clubs that drive that revenue. Yes they need teams to play but it doesn't really make much difference who they are.
While we have a League containing clubs of all difference sizes and all who generate more financial value for the League then there will have to be compromises to keep everybody happy. I'm very much of the view that the top 6 would happily take a compromise of an 18 team PL and any extra voting rights would be a bonus to them. I'm not sure any of that is going to be achievable though and what happens next is anyone's guess.
Christ, discussing anything with you is so difficult because you cannot read. I've said several times that this proposal is very clear, give us power and we'll give you money. How many times do I need to repeat that for you to understand it? It's a common thing with you, say one thing that disagrees with you and you interpret that as I've said something totally different.
I've repeatedly said that the power thing almost certainly won't be passed and tried to discuss the bigger picture. An 18 team PL in return for supporting the EFL is not a bad thing - the rest can be negotiated and an agreement can be found but for some reason everybody is getting caught up on the whole power/voting system.
Articles like Henry Winters are pointless because the proposal in this form won't pass. What people need to be doing is looking at the good parts of the proposal and then working out a way to keep as much of that as possible and negotiating the bad parts.
edit: and I'm disappointed to see that you didn't tweet Henry Winter.
I agree but this is all part of their negotiation. They're going in hard so that if they can negotiate it down to a status quo in terms of voting arrangement but cut the League down to 18 teams it seems like a win for everybody, except the 2 clubs that have been booted out of the PL.
We can sit here and argue about the existing proposal or break it down and look at the good points of it and work from there.
I don't know what you mean in that first sentence. The change in voting rights that this proposal is referring to is at PL level. What the EFL will be giving up is the League Cup (it's going to go anyway) and allowing the PL to negotiate their TV deal. In exchange they're going to receive 25% of total TV money and there will be a slight change in the play-off format. Fwiw, when the PL was formed (and Parry was part of the PL board) he offered the EFL a 20% deal which the EFL rejected, choosing to go it alone. That decision by the EFL has lead us to this point. PL revenues went through the roof and the EFL died on it's arse.
As for the 2nd point. My personal preference, despite the fact there's no hope of it happening, would be a total revenue sharing model and fan ownership. It's not realistic and it's not going to happen. You've again singled out the big 6 which I again find strange though. Rewind 6 months and it was the bottom 6 clubs attempting to hold the League to ransom, trying to block relegation and further hurt the EFL in order to benefit themselves. It was only due to the FA stepping in, with their golden share, that killed that idea off. None of the PL clubs want to help the EFL - Steve Parish admitted it in his article the other week. We live in a world where nobody gives you anything without something in return.
The issue here is that this is the only proposal on the table right now. Nobody else, whether that be the government or the other 14 PL clubs have come up with any solution. To be clear, I don't want the top 6 sides having total control either and I believe they're not expecting to get it too. This is the start of a negotiation that might go on for 2-3 years but a lot of people need to realise that there are lots of good things in it.
The EFL is ****** because of the gap in revenue between the Leagues. This leads to sides gambling on their future trying to make it to the promise land. This proposal closes that gap overnight, it also puts in hard spending caps to prevent teams pushing the boundaries. It also reserves money for stadium and infrastructure work (something Alan Sugar recommended years ago) so that clubs aren't mortgaging themselves to build a new stadium. These are all very good changes. The bad points are cutting the League to 18 teams but lets be fair, unless you are directly effected would anybody really say an 18 team PL is noticeably worse than a 20 team League? I don't think so. And then of course the power shift, giving the biggest sides more control of decisions moving forwards. This is the most controversial point but also the one that can be easily negotiated because it's nigh on impossible for these sides to force it through. Maybe you give them slightly more say but you get written guarantees on x, y & z which you consider big no no's or maybe it's point blank rejected.
I've added a poll to the thread with 3 options regarding the current proposal. The first option is the proposal as it stands, the second is a compromise of the current proposal and the third is to do nothing. If anybody can come up with another, realistic, option then I'll add it to the poll.
This is the problem with multiple leagues across multiple countries. Unless you have a single approach across the board then somebody will always be left behind. Whether it's the members system in Spain or the 51% fan ownership in Germany, these leagues have partially been disadvantaged compared to the PL due to their ownership structures. From day 1 we've always had private owners that have been willing to pump money into their clubs and in turn into the League.
The absolute ideal solution would be an across the board set-up with 51% fan ownership, shared revenues and a wage cap. Getting that just in the PL is as close to impossible as could be, let alone right across Europe.
The absolute ideal solution would be an across the board set-up with 51% fan ownership, shared revenues and a wage cap. Getting that just in the PL is as close to impossible as could be, let alone right across Europe.
What do you propose instead and what would be wrong with the 2nd option in your opinion Rob?
A very good podcast here with Matt Slater discussing all the details of this. The background of this, the details of the proposal and looking at the good and bad.
edit: one of the most interesting things from this is how the EFL clubs are more against the bottom PL sides than the top 6, with those clubs looking to hamper the EFL sides more than the top 6.
edit: one of the most interesting things from this is how the EFL clubs are more against the bottom PL sides than the top 6, with those clubs looking to hamper the EFL sides more than the top 6.
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How do you suggest persuading 20 club owners to give up £x without offering them anything in return?
That's possibly true however I'd suggest everybody listens to the podcast above regarding what EFL sides themselves think and their views on the bigger PL sides and smaller PL sides. According to Matt Slater the talks between the PL and EFL regarding any rescue package have all included lots of conditions designed to protect the smaller PL sides (presumably making it easier for any relegated PL side to get promoted straight back) and this proposal is seen as far more favourable.
It also comments on the reality that this power shift is not likely to pass and the real goal is probably some sort of compromise. They've speculated that the compromise could be changing from a 14-6 majority being required to pass anything to simply any majority.
I don't think there's too much opposition to this part of the proposal. The opposition is mainly to do with the voting rights. Maybe moving to a simple majority (10 to 8 in an 18 team league for example) would be a fair compromise on that. It still requires a majority but not one quite as big. This could drag on for years before any change actually happens though, what that means for the EFL in the short term I have no idea.
What's Parry done wrong thats upset you so much Woppy? His job is to do the best for the EFL. This deal is groundbreaking and the best thing that's happened to the EFL in years.
You only have to look at the fact that pretty much the entire EFL support these plans.
You only have to look at the fact that pretty much the entire EFL support these plans.
Jesus Christ woppy, no he could not have done!. How on earth is selling off 20% of the League (which means selling off 20% of all future revenues) good for the EFL? All that was is a short term life saver. Long term the issues the EFL have would only be even greater. Sides would be receiving even less money (as 20% is being given to this private equity firm) creating an even bigger gap between them and the PL, encouraging even more clubs to gamble with their lives to make it into the PL.
The main point of "Project Big Picture" is that it's not just a short term life saver for the EFL but a long term deal that makes EFL football sustainable. The gap in revenue between the top of the Championship and the bottom of the PL will be slashed making it no longer sensible for clubs to risk their future and it also puts in place hard spending caps to prevent them too. This needs to be really clear, this deal from the EFL's point of view is amazing. There's not been anything like this since the start of the PL and you only have to look at the reaction from EFL clubs to see they are fully supportive of it. And again, before you say anything, yes the top 6 don't care about the EFL they're doing it for their own gain. That's 100% true and the EFL don't care about the top 6, they're doing it for their own gain too.
The negative part of this deal is 100% at PL level, not the EFL. If the change in voting rights is scrapped or watered down then this deal could be the best thing that's happened to English football since the formation of the PL. It can only happen with an 18 team PL though - cutting the PL to 18 teams goes a long way for paying for the support they're proposing giving the EFL.
edit: This wasn't initially reported when the news broke but it's now come out that the top sides are also proposing selling the overseas rights for 8 games themselves. Overseas rights are currently worth around £1.4bn per season so 8 games (in a 34 game season) would be worth around £320m. Most of that £320m would now end up in the hands of Liverpool, Utd etc (costing other sides approx £10m per season) so that's obvious another issue in their plans.
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Almost everybody has voted for the 2nd option, which shows you there are discussions to be had around this. Not everything has to be black and white, right or wrong. There are good parts to this deal and their are some not so good parts. At the very least this has started a conversation and hopefully clubs and Leagues will now start devising a plan over how best to move forwards and find a solution that works for more people.
As I've said several times in this thread, the focus is on the evil big 6 but the other 14 PL sides do not want to help the EFL. In fact they are less likely to help the EFL because they're not going to get anything in return from it. Matt Slater said in the podcast I linked yesterday that, according to EFL clubs, it's the bottom PL sides that are trying to put huge conditions on any bail out the PL might offer, designed to protect themselves. And again, Steve Parish made his view clear - why should Tesco help a corner shop or deliveroo help a local cafe, those were his words when defending the PL's position regarding helping the EFL.
The only way to help the EFL is to cut funds to the PL. In the same way John Henry and the Glazers don't want to lose any money, neither does Mike Ashley at Newcastle or Steve Parish at Palace. Cutting the PL to 18 teams kind of resolves this issue - instead of splitting PL money between 20 teams you're only splitting it between 18 team, freeing up funds to pass down to the EFL. The downside is your Newcastle's, Burnley's and Palace's of this world face an increased chance of being relegated but lets be honest, I think we can all get behind throwing Burnley and Newcastle out of the League
ps I'm joking about Newcastle woppy, not about Burnley though.
It's not the PL's place to decide on who runs the EFL. There's some incredible irony in PL clubs, upset about the top 6 trying to dictate to them, wanting to dictate who runs the EFL.
Parry's job is to do what's best for the EFL clubs, not Burnley, Newcastle or Liverpool. No doubt your Burnley's and Newcastle's of this world aren't happy right now but I'm yet to see a comment from an EFL club that do not support the fundementals of this deal, at least the parts that effect them anyway.
That said, if this doesn't result in any sort of deal forthcoming for the EFL I can't see how he stays. But then again, if this doesn't result in some sort of deal we might not have so many clubs in the EFL either.
edit: The views of EFL clubs below. Some how it's got lost in all this but the views of 72 EFL sides are as important as 14 (+ the big 6) PL sides.
A join statement from the supporters groups of the big 6 sides:
https://www.arsenaltrust.org/feed/news/2020/AST-project big picture
In summary, they're in agreement that reform needs to take place and are supportive of some of the parts of the proposal but are totally against the shift in power to the big 6. I'll file them under option 2 then.
I don't want to take all of the credit for this (joking again woppy) but it appears there is a general consensus among all football supporters that some sort of compromise between what's being proposed and the current situation needs to happen. Now we have the challenge of convincing at least 14 of the 20 PL owners to agree on that compromise.
https://www.arsenaltrust.org/feed/news/2020/AST-project big picture
In summary, they're in agreement that reform needs to take place and are supportive of some of the parts of the proposal but are totally against the shift in power to the big 6. I'll file them under option 2 then.
I don't want to take all of the credit for this (joking again woppy) but it appears there is a general consensus among all football supporters that some sort of compromise between what's being proposed and the current situation needs to happen. Now we have the challenge of convincing at least 14 of the 20 PL owners to agree on that compromise.
He hasn't though. As some of the EFL clubs have said themselves, it's down to the PL to sort their politics out. Parry has agreed a deal that benefits the EFL and it's now down to the PL to agree it between themselves.
Because they don't care about the EFL and don't want to help? As I've mentioned several times now, the only way you can save the EFL without asking the PL clubs to take a pay-cut (which none will do) is by cutting the PL to 18 teams. That can be done without handing the keys over to the top 6.
The threat is that they'll rejoin the EFL and the new top tier will be those + Norwich, Derby etc. Utd - Derby is no more or less appealing to broadcasters than Utd - West Brom, is it?
Unsurprisingly the proposal has been rejected by the PL but they've released a statement saying they will work together on a "strategic plan for the future structures and financing of English football". Let the negotiations begin.
This could drag on for a couple of years but if I had to guess on the outcome of this then I'd say we end up with no League Cup (as early as next season), the 14 vote majority will be cut to any majority, for example 11 votes in a 20 team League or 10 in an 18 team League and a bigger slice of overseas money goes to the big boys. The big question and what will be hardest to call is whether the League gets cut to 18 sides. Without this it's difficult to see how any long term funding can be passed down to the EFL, beyond any short term bailout.
edit: and it's also being reported that the PL are only offering a £50m short term bailout to the EFL, not the £250m they need. It was stated in a select committee meeting today that the PL are also putting lots of unreasonable conditions in place with this offer too. Those horrible "small 14" being selfish again, putting their own interests ahead of the EFL
edit2: and this £50m isn't even £50m. It's £20m + £30m worth of loans. Basically they're offering the EFL a plaster for a knife wound. Hopefully that will get a few clubs through the next 6 months but who knows how many will go into administration while the PL take years putting together their plan.
This could drag on for a couple of years but if I had to guess on the outcome of this then I'd say we end up with no League Cup (as early as next season), the 14 vote majority will be cut to any majority, for example 11 votes in a 20 team League or 10 in an 18 team League and a bigger slice of overseas money goes to the big boys. The big question and what will be hardest to call is whether the League gets cut to 18 sides. Without this it's difficult to see how any long term funding can be passed down to the EFL, beyond any short term bailout.
edit: and it's also being reported that the PL are only offering a £50m short term bailout to the EFL, not the £250m they need. It was stated in a select committee meeting today that the PL are also putting lots of unreasonable conditions in place with this offer too. Those horrible "small 14" being selfish again, putting their own interests ahead of the EFL
edit2: and this £50m isn't even £50m. It's £20m + £30m worth of loans. Basically they're offering the EFL a plaster for a knife wound. Hopefully that will get a few clubs through the next 6 months but who knows how many will go into administration while the PL take years putting together their plan.
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lol there wasn't a vote? They're not going to put something to a vote that doesn't have a chance of passing.
The PL always release statements saying the clubs unanimously/all 20 clubs agreed on x, just like during all the fighting over the restart. Every statement they released claimed all 20 clubs were committed to completing the season despite it obviously not being the case. Liverpool and Utd have set their position out and the negotiations are going to begin - this was never going to be agreed at the first round of talks but they've started the ball rolling and will almost certainly end with them better off than they are now.
What will now be interesting is the reaction to the plans that David Bernstein, Gary Neville, Andy Burnham and Mervyn King are due to release soon. They're likely to include a lot of the good parts of Project Big Picture. Who are the small 14 going to hide behind this time when they decide they don't want to share their money with the EFL? It's easy to share when you want to share with somebody richer than you, it's not so fun when you're asked to share with the poor guy.
edit: This tweet sums up what has and will happen: