Poll: Premier League Shake-Up?

PL/EFL changes of structure

  • 18 Team PL, all the power to the top 6 and save the EFL

    Votes: 1 1.4%
  • 18 Team PL, little or no more power to the top 6 and save the EFL

    Votes: 56 78.9%
  • 20 Team PL and the EFL dies.

    Votes: 14 19.7%

  • Total voters
    71
I guess we'll find out if/when it goes ahead how it will affect spending and if rules are enforced. It's all speculation so far but the prize money for the winners is said to be in the hundreds of millions. How much do you get for winning the CL?

If Juve really are the driving force behind it then anything can happen.
Andrea Agnelli discussing reform in the CL a year ago here: https://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/pre...m-juventus-chairman/q9cal5oa7odw196rsnsulu6kk
Florentino Pérez pushing the FIFA League idea 10 months ago here: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/05/sports/real-madrid-fifa-european-super-league.html

And my mate Tariq summing up their reasons why here:

He obviously reads my posts :p

Whoever wins La Liga, assuming it's Barca or Real, earn around the same as the side finishing 6-8th in the PL with 3rd place Atletico earning about the same as the 20th placed PL side. In Italy it's even worse with Juve winning the League but earning around 10% less than the 20th placed PL side. Pre covid the PL had already negotiated one of it's overseas deals for some scandinavian countries with another massive increase. The biggest sides in Europe need more European money to counter the threat of the PL's ever increasing revenue. A bigger CL with more games between the bigger sides will absolutely happen, a new FIFA League only becomes a possibility if Real et al can convince the big PL sides to join them and UEFA don't give more money/security to the bigger sides.
 
This is their own fault for individually negotiating their own TV deals to the detriment of their leagues and competition as a whole, the irony, want all the cash to themselves yet moan that the competition isn't sufficient in their own league to generate revenue.

The EPL and the money that comes with it is a result of the competitive nature of the league.
Serie A do not sell the rights individually (nor the Bundesliga or Ligue 1) and La Liga hasn't for years. The PL has distributed TV money more evenly than these other Leagues however the biggest reason for the growth of the PL is from overseas revenue.

If you ask a people what's the biggest game in Europe most would say Real - Barca however if you look at viewing figures it's not close. The PL have always been one step ahead of other European Leagues. At the start of the PL they were giving overseas tv rights away for nothing because they wanted to build up loyal viewers that they could leverage later. When Real - Barca was kicking off in the evening in Spain, Liverpool - Utd was kicking off at lunch time in the UK. Why? Because 12 noon in the UK is prime time in the far east. PL games were attracking millions of overseas viewers while La Liga games were being played when these supporters were sleeping.
 
But its the initial growth in the home market that allowed the PL to expand overseas. Real/ Barca realised to late their model was flawed.

I'd be interested to know how much a football TV package cost in the other European leagues and whether the PL see this as a threat to their model also.
Yes, you had the initial growth due to domestic rights but that was down to the launch of Sky Sports, pumping in millions of pounds to the League, rather than any competitiveness within the League. As I said, the PL and Richard Scudamore in particular, were always 1 step ahead of other Leagues and this is the reason for the growth in the PL.

Before EU competition laws prevented one broadcaster owning all rights to a single League, the PL already decided to break up the PL's rights into smaller packages as they knew nobody could compete with Sky for the whole thing. This forced Sky to pay a premium on every single package because a BBC, ITV or whoever, were suddenly able to compete for 1 small package of games even if they couldn't compete for the rights as a whole. Every time the PL bubble was supposed to have burst Scudamore would negotiate even bigger tv contracts, bringing in new rivals to Sky, forcing them to pay more and more.

The PL have always played the long game - at the most recent rights sale they were willing to and in the end did accept a lower payment from Amazon for the rights for certain games as they wanted one of the big internet giants on board, knowing that was their big area of growth for the future. They've rinsed every penny they can get out of Sky & BT for now so they need an Amazon or Netflix to join the bidding, if not to actually win the rights but to force Sky to pay more. And when they've got the most they can out of broadcasters, they've still got their joker to play. The PL pushing their League around the world, giving rights away for next to nothing for years, playing games at times that benefited Chinese viewers more than UK viewers has lead to the PL having 100s of millions of supporters around the world. As soon as they fully trust the tech (another reason for getting Amazon on board) and it makes financial sense for them to do so, they'll launch their own Netflix style service and they'll generate even more money.
 
18 team max PL was supposed to be the case for absolutely AGES now (certainly well over a decade), one of the governing bodies I think it might have been UEFA had set a directive that the leagues across Europe should be max 18 teams, I think England and Spain were on the naughty boy list. Need to get this chopped down, just do what they did when reducing it from 22 teams, 4 down 2 up. Obviously need to look at the concertina effect presumably resulting in more teams pushed down into the conference.
A number of journalists have commented on this recently. It was generally accepted from the time in which the PL was formed that it would eventually be cut to 18 teams, with the idea that a smaller League would benefit the national side - at least that was the sales pitch to the FA to secure their backing. As soon as the PL exploded and the TV money flowed in, I guess too many of smaller sides changed their mind.

The EFL as a whole didn't seem overly concerned about losing two League 2 sides to the National League though but if that was an issue then, as Neville suggested, just have a 26 team League 2.
 
Some interesting news on Project Big Picture in the Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...ture-talks-fa-chairman?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Rick Parry already outed Greg Clarke, the FA Chairman, as the man that brought everbody to the table regarding Project Big Picture however Clarke had claimed that he broke off talks once it became about power/money for the big boys. Well it turns out that was BS. The Guardian have found that Clarke was involved in talks right up until covid brought everything to a stand still, even claiming that Clarke was involved in the breakaway threat and was discussing how they would execute the plan, and resumed talks with John Henry as late as September.

Like Clarke, Parry also told all EFL sides that Richard Masters was aware that talks were going on although Masters didn't attend them. The Guardian have seen emails showing that Gary Hoffman, the PL's chairman, had seen the plans though, responded positvely to them and was due to become involved with talks before the plans were leaked to the public.
 
Yes we know this, the problem I have is I think its BS!! to cull the English calendar for favour of international tournaments.....
That's obviously your opinion but it's not shared by broadcasters and it stands to reason that broadcasters want more European football and specifically more games between the bigger sides because that's what attracts more viewers. It would appear that your opinion is therefore in the minority. I certainly would rather see an extra few games between Liverpool/Utd/Real/Barca/Bayern etc at the expence of Burnley v West Brom.

As for the comment about not bringing everybody to the table, I was referring to those involved in talks. It had initially been suggested that this was all Liverpool, Utd and Rick Parry's idea however it was just convenient to point the finger at them. Greg Clarke, the chairman of the FA, set it all up and the PL via both Masters and Hoffman were fully aware that talks were going on and in Hoffman's case had seen the plans and was due to participate in future talks. The PL board and FA were happy to act all shocked and offended but it turns out they were well onside too.
 
A lot of sense being spoken on monday night football regarding Project Big Picture. Neville and Carragher both highlighting the hypocrisy of the other 14 PL clubs and how people need to look at the big picture, no pun intended.

And following on from the last Guardian article, more detail of Greg Clarke's involvement in Project Big Picture:

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...of-project-big-picture-talks?CMP=share_btn_tw

Obviously one of the big 6 wasn't impressed with Clarke's finger pointing and have provided emails to the Guardian that show how he wasn't just participating in these talks but was well and truly the driving force behind them. Clarke proposed a two tier PL (and B teams in the EFL), something the others rejected but also talked about how covid and plans for a restructured CL & possible breakaway league would provide an opportunity to force through change. He did also, correctly, say that the other 14 clubs would find it easy use the lazy media to whip this up into a power grab storm.
 
I can assure you its not the minority, on football supporter specific forums, the view is overwhelmingly against the big picture, and also of trading league games for international tournaments in general. The FA have been distancing themselves from it, and liverpool and the others cowarded away in the EPL meeting, as they knew public opinion was hugely against it.

I am starting to wonder are you pretending to be a small club fan, as you are text book glory supporter here is what you want.

Control by the glory clubs
Shrink the league
Kill the league cup.
More glamour competitions.

That's text book glory supporter.

Also i see the poll still has no 20 team league "and" bailout the league.

Also yes the TV companies will want what makes them more money, no surprise there, but TV companies dont necessarily represent people.

I'm starting to wonder if English is your first language or whether you just have reading difficulties.

Firstly, I said you're in the minority in terms of people wanting more big European games, not in relation to project big picture. Please don't try to twist words or change your argument because you just make yourself seem desperate when you do that. Your last sentence is laughable. Broadcasters are doing this because of money but not because it represents what viewers want :o Oh dear. How do they expect to make more money if viewers don't want these games? What do you think is attracting more viewers, Burnley vs anybody or Utd - Bayern Munich? And if you answer that question truthfully you'll see how you're in the minority. I have no issue if you personally don't want more European football but viewing figures are telling broadcasters that the masses do.

As for your point about the FA distancing themselves from it. You obviously didn't read the latest two articles from David Conn. They have emails showing that Greg Clarke, the chairman of the FA, not only instigated the whole thing but was the single biggest driving force for it. As I posted last night, he put forward the idea that the restructured CL (and likely threat of a breakaway League) along with covid made it the right time to push these proposals through. Greg Clarke's initial plans went even further than what was eventually leaked. He proposed ripping up the pyramid altogther and allowing PL B teams in the EFL, something the others involved in the talks rejected. It's not just the FA that were involved and in favour of these plans but the Chairman of the PL was shown the plans and in favour too! Like Greg Clarke they chose to pretend otherwise after the event but somebody's been leaking emails that shows they're little liars. But this is just noise now. We know that the biggest, most powerful figures in English football have all been involved in these proposals - change is going to come, we can only hope it's for the best.

You're a typical, hysterical and hypocritical small 14 fan. I've said on these forums for over 10 years that I'm in favour of fan ownership coupled with far greater revenue sharing (similar to what they have in the US) and spending caps/ffp. It's all or nothing though. You're not going to get revenue sharing without fan ownership and you cannot put FFP into place (fairly) without revenue sharing. Now obviously you don't want to acknowledge that because I highlight the hypocrisy of you and the club you support. You, like many others don't actually want to look at the bigger picture and prefer to be so shocked and offended that Liverpool & Utd were trying to keep more money for themselves and want to divert away from suggestions that the other 14 clubs stance is exactly the same.

The above is the exact point Neville and co made last night. There was so many good parts of Project Big Picture that should be being discussed. You don't have to agree with certain points but who in their right mind doesn't want:
  • Greater distribution of revenue to the EFL, reducing the gap between the top of the EFL and bottom of the PL.
  • Reduced away ticket prices and subsidised travel for supporters.
  • A proportion of TV revenue being reserved for stadium and infrastructure work - instead of every penny being blown on transfers and wages, if a cut of TV money could only be spent on infrastructure work then it will encourage owners to build better facilities.
  • Increased likelihood that Burnley are out of the PL by reducing the PL to 18 teams.
You can want those things without wanting the bad parts. I know this is the internet and you've got to by hysterical and jumpt from extreme to extreme but still we can at least try to debate sensibly.

And finally, your question about the poll. Two reasons, the small 14 clubs have continuously voted against giving the EFL a proper bailout (the dirty greedy ********s not wanting to help those below them!!!!) and because a one off bailout doesn't solve the issues for the EFL. How many EFL sides have gone into administration or on the brink of administration in the years before covid? The current structure and distribution of money is ****ed. The gap in revenue between the bottom of the PL and top of the EFL, along with parachute payments is what has caused the EFL to eat itself alive. And lets get this crystal clear, the reason for the massive gap in revenue and the parachute payments are designed to do one thing, protect the smallest PL sides, not your Liverpool's and Utd's. You and other small 14 hypocrits want to scream and shout about a closed shop at the top of the PL but the PL has been desgined to be a closed shop at the bottom, further highlighted by the PL's decision not to offer Champioship sides a bailout and to put conditions on any bailout to League 1 and 2 sides. The small 14 want their place in the PL to be as secure as possible and money is distributed in a way that whoever gets relegated has a massive financial advantage when it comes to getting promoted back into the PL. Obviously this doesn't suit your agenda though :)
 
It gets better. In tonight's Guardian they're reporting that not only did the FA, via Greg Clarke, instigate Project Big Picture and the PL board were well aware of talks and saw plans (and were in favour) prior to the leaks but the PL board held a separate meeting (after the leaks) with the top 6 a day before the official PL meeting. It was at that meeting between the PL board and top 6 that they agreed to hold a strategic review of the points raised in Project Big Picture.

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...cture-plans-secret-from-clubs-outside-big-six

So the supposed big win for the other 14 clubs at the PL meeting, in ending Project Big Picture but agreeing to a strategic review, was actually decided by the big 6 for them :o

Greg Clarke, Masters and Hoffman's decision to jump on the faux outrage bandwagon has clearly backfired with somebody at one of the big 6 clubs leaking these emails to the Guardian.
 
Shows the arrogance of the big 6, thinking they have any sway over the 14 other clubs.

I'm sure if they were included from the start, the outcome would have been a lot difference.

Reap what you sow
You do understand that the big 6 and PL board decided what would happen, not the other 14 clubs right? They just let the other 14 clubs think it was their decision but it was made 24 hours earlier in their private meeting.
 
I seen this and just rotflmao :D
You should really read the article I linked last night. It's been revealed that 24 hours before the PL meeting, the PL board and top 6 met and agreed what would happen.

You might not like it but you're incredibly naive if believe that the top sides don't call the shots. The only news that the Guardian articles have provided is that both the FA and PL board have been actively involved with everything behind the other 14 clubs backs.
 
Right :rolleyes:

So like how the original proposal was accepted :D
The original proposal was never proposed as it was not finalised :rolleyes:

As I said, you should really read whats been revealed in the Guardian as you clearly don't know what you're talking about. The PL didn't reveal that they were aware of talks nor that Hoffman had seen the plans, was in favour and due to join the talks and they certainly didn't tell the other 14 clubs that they met the big 6 one day before to agree a strategy moving forwards.

The PL have admitted to or not disputed all of the above BTW and its all been revealed from leaked emails but put your head in the sand if you wish.

edit: Below is a chain of events, according to the leaked emails seen by the Guardian, for anybody like you that's struggling to keep up with what's happened:
  • Greg Clarke (the chairman of the FA) approaches Bruce Buck (Chelsea Chairman and member of various PL boards) with his proposals - these include most of what was leaked at the start of the month but also had a 2 tier PL + PL B teams in the EFL, which were removed.
  • John Henry (Liverpool owner), the Glazers (Utd owner), Rick Parry (head of the EFL) and Richard Masters (PL CEO) are then invited to join the talks. All accept except Masters, who is instead kept up to date via Bruce Buck.
  • During the talks it's Greg Clarke that brings up the threat of breakaway leagues and covid as opportunities to force these changes through.
  • Talks postpone while everybody is dealing with the covid situation but in September, Greg Clarke contacts John Henry to get things back on track.
  • The Plans are shown to Gary Hoffman (PL Chairman) who says the PL board have been doing some planning too and shared a lot of the points in Big Picture and agrees to join in further talks.
  • The plans are leaked - the FA and PL announce how shocked they are, pretending they don't know anything about it.
  • The PL board meet in secret with the big 6 and agree that they won't pursue Project Big Picture but will instead carry out a strategic review of their own on the exact same issues.
  • The PL meet, with the other 14 clubs completley unaware that the FA & PL were involved in the planning, in favour of it and already met with the big 6 to discuss how to move forwards. The 14 clubs have their moment, believing they've won a battle when in actual fact they agreed to something the PL board and big 6 decided on 24 hours earlier.
  • Everybody will now discuss and debate all the issues raised in the leaked document and various compromises will be made. The likely outcome will be more space created in the calendar to fit more European games in (who knows whether that can happen without an 18 team PL), more overseas TV money going to the bigger sides and a bit more money filtering down to the EFL.
 
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