Poll: Premier League Shake-Up?

[BaZ87]

....

I think your trust in the government is misplaced. Oliver Dowden spoke at a select committee this morning and he was grilled on the two points you raise.

Firstly though on saving the EFL in the short term and saving it in the long term, which was the point of the poll (I should have been clearer). Yes, absolutely you wouldn't need reform to find the £200m odd the EFL needs to save it this season - as has been posted in this thread they could have raised that money by selling off 20% of future revenues. That would obviously make it even weaker moving forwards but could be done. The EFL has been eating itself alive long before covid though. EFL sides are racking up huge losses year on year, spending every penny it generates in wages alone, with clubs on the brink or going into administration every season. This is a direct consequence of the huge difference in revenue. This gap in revenue encourages clubs to overspend and once one does, everybody follows because if you don't then you cannot compete.

There are two solutions to the above, you ask the 20 PL teams to give up a greater share of their money. Yes, I laughed too. Or you cut the PL to 18 sides and because you're then only splitting revenue between 18 instead of 20 sides, the PL can sustain the EFl without asking it's members to lose money.

Now on the two government points you made. Oliver Dowden was asked about the bailout today and all he could say is he's been assured no club would go to the wall. When he was pushed he couldn't provide anything to assure anybody. When asked about Project Big Picture he was asked who he represented, the 72 EFL sides or the 14 PL sides and the MP questioning him went on to explain that those sides are asking for lots of unreasonable conditions to be placed on the EFL in regards to any bailout. And finally regarding regulation and the government and the supporter lead review - this was something the conservatives said they were going to do anyway and he was asked why is it now a threat if an agreement isn't reached? His answer was some waffle about timing. In other words it's not happening.

edit: and the PL have made their bailout offer. They've offered £20m + £30m of loans to League 1 and 2 clubs of the £250m asked for.

 

[BaZ87]

Whatever the issues right now, the big picture idea was not the solution. That was insanity.

The problem facing the 14 PL clubs, is that there is a revenue grab going on from the big 6, this clearly was going to be accelerated in the big picture, where there was an immediate change in the international part of the revenue, meaning those big 6 who you consider the more generous were not losing out.

I do agree with you though that the EPL should be coughing up what is needed, however I disagree that the EPL needs to go down to 18 teams to fund it, just send what is needed and get on with it.

However the money perhaps should not be entirely unconditional either, it is probably a reasonable expectation to expect expensive player acquisitions to cease, and salary burdens to be reduced over the upcoming years. I dont think the money should be in the form of loans, it clearly needs to be a grant.

As for future tv revenues, I wouldnt be against it been shared with the EFL, but again big picture is not needed for that, you are more likely to get 14 EPL clubs onside if the big 6 were not trying to grab more of the EPL money, the big 6 hate the current distribution of the money.

As you correctly stated the championship has been running unsustainable for several years pre covid, I remember in our promotion season (Leicester), there was a table posted of annual losses and something like 3/4 of the league were in 8 figure annual losses. All chasing the EPL dream. We need to remember the bailout is not to support that model, it is to compensate for non attendance at games, all the EFL clubs themselves need to be doing their own part as well in cutting squad costs.

Project Big Picture as a single proposal wasn't the solution but there were lots of good elements in it and the biggest being the shared tv revenue. Until you close the gap in revenue between the EFL and PL then you will always have this issue. You can talk about salary caps and spending limits all you want but clubs will hire lawyers to get around these. You only have to look at what's already gone on in the EFL, with clubs selling their stadiums to their owners to get around FFP. The jump in revenue from the Championship to the PL is so big that clubs are encouraged to gamble. Take that incentive away and they have no reason to spend beyond their means.

Regarding the point about cutting the League to 18, this is only required in relation to the long term funding for the EFL not the short term bailout. And I couldn't disagree more regarding more sides being willing to share had it not been for this proposal. The other 14 clubs have already made it clear that they don't want to fund the bailout, let alone give money away moving forwards. A lot of people don't want to admit it but the other 14 PL clubs are as greedy as the top 6 - they don't want to share with their poorer neighbours in the EFL just like the big 6 don't want to share with them. This is why reducing to 18 teams is the only realistic solution. No PL side has to end up with less money. PL revenues won't change much, if at all, if the League is cut to 18 because nobody is paying for Burnley etc, but you have two fewer teams to share the money with. The £200m odd that would have gone to those sides is now available for the EFL. Throw in the money from parachute payments that everybody in the EFL want scrapped and you've got £300m+ more than now to give to the EFL without a PL side losing a penny.

The other very good idea which hasn't got much mention is the bit about reserving a percentage of TV money to go towards stadium and infrastructure work. This was something Alan Sugar wanted the PL to do when he was still running Spurs but everybody was shortsighted and just wanted to take the money and run. This idea would stop clubs spending every penny on transfers and wages and encourage clubs to improve their stadiums and facilities.

 

[BaZ87]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1316727992689790978

It shows you how bad the offer from the PL is when EFL clubs, that are facing going under, are rejecting it. Those evil small 14 clubs refusing to help the Championship to protect their position at the bottom of the PL

 

[BaZ87]

I didnt ask before but do you have proof its specifically the bottom 14, also someone who is desperate would snap up any offer, l1 and l2 wouldnt have got much more than 50m on the combined 250m offer anyway, we know that most of it would have gone to the championship.

As Azza pointed out, it only requires 14 votes for a PL motion to be passed so if those 14 clubs wanted to offer the EFL a proper package they could have. You then have the off the record briefs to journalists - I linked a podcast which Matt Slater talks about this very issue. And then finally we know that at least 3 of the top 6 were working on completely different, far more beneficial plans to the EFL, than what has been offered - it certainly wouldn't make sense for these clubs to lead the PL's proposals when working on an alternative.

If true, why would the other 14 clubs want to help the EFL, when Parry was colluding with the so called big 6 behind their backs?

They are under no obligation.

This obviously ignores the fact that they didn't want to help and offered an even worse package prior to this news breaking.

edit: It's actually incredible that people are trying to pretend that any PL club wants to help the EFL. Steve Parish wrote an article detailing why the PL shouldn't have to help long before any proposals were leaked. It's not a secret. The bottom of the PL treat the EFL the same way the top of the PL treats the bottom of the PL.

 

[BaZ87]

Confirmation now that the EFL have indeed rejected the PL's conditional offer. Lots of journo's being briefed that the offer was "disgraceful", "derisory" and "outrageous". I think it's about time those small 14 clubs just ****ed off and started their own European Conference League!

I hope I'm doing this right, I'm not well practised at hypocritical faux outrage.

 

[BaZ87]

....

Firstly, I'm being intentionally mischievous because there is this ridiculous idea that only the top 6 clubs are greedy.

Look at the both deals, project big picture and this PL offer to the EFL, and you will see a number of similarities between them - unfortunately just the bad points though, none of the good points. In fact you could almost just swap "big 6 & small 14" with "small 14 & championship".

In Project Big Picture the top 6 were happy to fund the whole of the EFL (as they are no threat to them) while offering no extra money to the remaining 14 PL sides and also taking control of the League. The accusation being that they were looking to secure their position at the top even further. This current PL deal offers funds to League 1 & 2 sides (who are no threat to the bottom of the PL) while offering no extra money to the Championship and also taking more control of the EFL. Which sides in the PL are benefiting from starving the Championship and taking more control of the EFL? Are Liverpool & Utd worrying about your Derby's of this world? Of course not but the clubs in danger of relegation sure are. A weaker Championship benefits one group of clubs and that is the group of PL sides that are at risk of relegation. A relegated PL side, with their huge parachute payment, dropping into a Championship full of sides on life support and under strict regulations, have a far greater chance of bouncing straight back.

Of course none of the PL sides want to give money to the EFL but the bottom PL sides have far more to gain from starving the Championship than the top PL sides have and this is why they are not going to give the EFL the deal they need.

 

[BaZ87]

You ignored what I wrote, you just said they were happy to fund the EFL "after" I explained they wouldnt be paying a penny.

Also no one has said only the top 6 are greedy.

You are looking at it one way only. "money", you clearly dont care about a smaller EPL, losing the league cup and community shield, B teams, and any future dictatorship, you just want that £££. Thankfully for the integrity of English football the rest of the EPL blocked that nonsense.

The EFL would be funded by PL tv money - they wouldn't lose money compared to what they were earning but it is money that they generate so yes, they would be paying for it. The big 6 currently fund the entire PL too. Or are you going to suggest that the majority of the near £3bn per season in TV money isn't being paid for the rights to the big 6's games?

And look at the reaction in this thread. Where is all the rage and hysteria around the PL's offer to the EFL like there was to Project Big Picture?

As for your last part, if you read through my posts in this thread you'll see that I've repeatedly said the transfer of power to the big 6 is a bad thing. I am however fully supportive of he League Cup going & Community Shield going and cutting the PL to 18 sides with the funds saved from the 2 teams cut going to the EFL. I believe that is a fair compromise. I only briefly touched on it in this thread so I will forgive you for not acknowledging it but I have often said that my ideal solution would be a complete revenue sharing model with 51% fan ownership - the fan ownership part is a requirement because you'll never convince private owners to give up their money, as we're seeing now. It would appear that you, along with most small 14 club supporters that have commented in this thread are happy to rage at the big 6 not wanting to share with your clubs but have no issue with your own club doing the exact same thing to the EFL. That is what you call hypocrisy.

edit: and you did edit your post 5 times so you can forgive me if I didn't reply to every point - I didn't even see half of it until I refreshed the page after posting my reply.

 

[BaZ87]

The EPL rights are sold as a collective, until you straighten your head on this, you are completely of the path, the big 6 need the rest of the clubs to form a league. So no they are not funding the entire league. You seem to have some big love in with those clubs, which is your right, but when you try to paint a false picture blaming 14 clubs and saying the only way the EFL can be funded is with an 18 club league, I feel you are completely out of touch.

do you want another SPL, or Spanish division where its not even remotely competitive? There is a reason the EPL is the most popular league in the world.

And you had the cheek to say I didn't reply to what you said. Again, what I want and what will happen are different things. Equally me commenting on the hypocrisy of the small 14 and their supporters doesn't therefore mean I support the ideas put forward by Liverpool.

Yes, the EPL rights are currently sold collectively however anybody with a tiny bit of sense knows that the bulk of the rights fees are driven by a small number of clubs. So yes, those clubs are funding the PL. Without these sides there would be no £3bn per year TV deal and this is why every few years we have a small battle within the PL as the big sides decide they want a bit more of the money - the smaller sides are outraged but always end up giving up a bit more because they know that if they don't then these sides will do another PL and form a new League without them. This is the reality whether you, me or anybody else likes it. Some people won't remember or realise but this is what lead to the PL - the biggest EFL sides wanted more money and control so broke away.

And to say I have some big love in with the big clubs when for over 10 years I've supported the idea of fan ownership, even committing to pay into a group looking to try to take back Liverpool from our previous owners, as well as regularly stating that I support Liverpool giving even more money way to smaller sides is quite odd. At the bottom of this post I will quote a post of mine from 9 years ago discussing this very point.

And how can you can say I'm painting a false picture of the other 14 sides? Steve Parish wrote an article in a national newspaper admitting that he doesn't think the PL should have to help the EFL out and the PL have now put forward two proposals to the EFL that do to them exactly what you're upset that Liverpool & Utd want to do to Leicester et al!!! Jesus Christ.

edit: and documents have already come out that showed Bruce Buck (Chelsea Chairman) was involved in the proposals for months.

Shared revenue like they have in the US and 51% fan ownership & rules on profitiability as they have in the Bundesliga =

I'm know it's not that simple but the principle would work.

 

[BaZ87]

I'm really not sure we're at odds with each other as much as you think. In fact I believe 99% of supporters will agree on most things. Very few people want power to be handed to the top sides but I'm sure most don't want the PL as a whole, including the other 14 sides that you don't want to criticise, to put their foot on the throat of the Championship either. It's not as fashionable to say the latter though.

There is a lot of what was in Project Big Picture which is good - increased revenue for the EFL, cutting the gap between the Leagues, and more money reserved for stadium works, stopping sides from spending every penny on players and encouraging them to improve their facilities. We can want those points without wanting the bad points. I know this is an internet forum but we don't always have to be hysterical and say x is great or x is terrible. It is allowed to look at what's being proposed and to say x, y & z are good things but a, b & c aren't. But if all you're interested in is what is good for Leicester and not what is good for the EFL too then maybe not.

 

[BaZ87]

EFL sides don't put their first choice team out in it either. It's become a distraction for everybody and as soon as the PL sides leave it (and they will because we will soon have 10 PL sides in Europe) there is even less appeal to it. I suppose you could keep the Cup without the PL sides and instead just scrap the EFL trophy - it's essentially the same thing as scrapping the League Cup but with a little more prestige than the EFL trophy.

 

[BaZ87]

As like I stated before, give the EFL winners one of the Europa spots

The FA Cup is THE historic competition, what's not to say that wouldn't be next on the list to be scrapped. Just like the League Cup, the Prem sides don't play their first team in the 3rd and 4th rounds either.

Re the League Cup, I don't think that will change anything tbh. When was the last time the League Cup was won by somebody outside the automatic CL/EL spots? Swansea in 2013? The Europa spot isn't a motivation for anybody, whether that be the top clubs or the smaller PL sides. It will just mean 1 less Europa spot and we have to remember that UEFA are introducing a 3rd European competition soon which will mean as many as 10 PL sides will be in Europe moving forwards.

As for the FA Cup, that's not going any time soon but who knows what the future holds. Who'd have thought we'd have a PL 40 years ago? And at some point in the future, who knows when, there absolutely will be a European Super League.

 

[BaZ87]

3rd European comp? be like bringing back the cup winners cup.

https://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleag...nce-league-what-is-it-when-does-it-start-who/

It is quite suitably named.

Personally I wonder if it would make my day if the big 6 got kicked out of the PL.....

I do love these sorts of comments. The day these sides leave you'll have every other club in the League chasing them saying please take us with you.

 

[BaZ87]

There would be an initial problem, but wages would fall sharply as contracts wind down, and it would settle down to like the pre sky tv days.

All while there is another League paying sky high wages. This would result in all the best players moving to said League and the quality of the old League falling through the floor. I'm not a darts fan myself, I'm not sure if you are, but this would be similar to when the tops darts players left the BDO. They formed their own competition(s) which have gone from strength to strength while those that stayed behind, taking the moral high ground are now basically playing in a pub League.

No PL club owner would take that moral high ground though as none of them want to see their £200m+ assets become worthless overnight.

 

[BaZ87]

I think a lot of people love to complain but they're still more willing than ever to pay near £100 per month to Sky & BT to watch it and abroad it's growing quicker than ever. The financial gulf has been there since the start of the PL though - the only times one of the big boys didn't win the competition is a freak Leicester season and Blackburn, bankrolled by Jack Walker. FFP has been put in place to stop Jack Walker happening again though.

 

[BaZ87]

Hasn't stopped Man City or Chelsea from winning the league.

Leicester winning the league was a breath of fresh air.

There is no financial gulf for Leicester, our owners are 3rd or 4th richest in the Premier League. We've just spent £100m on a world class training facility.

City and Chelsea spent over £1bn to join the elite and FFP was brought in to stop others joining in future.

As for Leicester, their owners aren't Sheikh's and haven't shown any willingness to spend the hundreds of millions needed to bridge the gap between them at the clubs at the top. Their revenue was £178m as of their last set of accounts, compared to £500-600m of the big sides. That's a gulf.

 

[BaZ87]

Leicester doesn't need to spend £1bn to be successful.

Which means that the big 6 are based on £££ rather than winning trophies. That does make sense, seeing Spurs haven't won anything. Been 16 years for Arsenal and nearly a decade for Manchester United.

That explains why Leicester have consistently challenged at the top of the table.

 

[BaZ87]

It's not a bluff. FIFA have been actively looking to create their own rival to the CL for a number of years with initial plans to expand the Club World Cup and play it in the summer. Even without this tournament, as who knows whether it will happen, the alternative will be an expanded CL with 14 group games instead of the current 6.

This is why the big sides want the League cut to 18 teams and the fact that this is backed by FIFA will put huge pressure on the FA to clear the calendar to make this happen.

 

[BaZ87]

I know that baz, it’s just awfully convenient that this is released the week after the the power grab was shot down in flames, I bet within a month another draft will come out from MUFC/LFC/EFL with parts of it pointing toward this breakaway

Claims that their plans were shot down in flames is nothing more than spin from the PL & smaller clubs. The original proposal, which we have to remember was never actually finishined and formally presented to the League (it was leaked to the press) was never going to be passed at the first sitting. It was an opening set of points to start negotiations and the PL have confirmed that they're now going to begin their review (hoping to conclude before the end of the year) on the structure, finance and governance of the League. The big clubs are 100% going to get some of the concessions they want.

As for the timing of this news coming out, I really don't think it makes much difference. Unlike previous European Super League Leagues, either this FIFA League or an expanded CL are going to happen. It's not a threat, it's the reality. FIFA have already announced that the Club World Cup is going to be expanded and played in the summer however the European clubs are/were refusing to enter it due to the congested calendar. Is this the compromise? FIFA move it to a midweek League and this FIFA League effectively replaces the CL, with the CL effectively becoming the Europa League? Even if this idea doesn't get off the ground, UEFA are already drawing up plans to change the CL with 8 groups of 4 teams (top 4 progress) instead of the 4 groups of 8, creating an extra 8 group games.

More midweek European football is coming and the fact that it will be lead by one or both of UEFA and FIFA will mean the FA and PL have little choice but to make space for these games. Will scrapping the League Cup and FA Cup replays create enough space? I'm not sure and that's probably why they're pushing for an 18 team PL.

 

[BaZ87]

I'm sure a few people will get mixed up so I'll say this now, this idea isn't a break away from the PL or domestic footbal. It's effectively a League to replace the CL.

City will be spending 500mil a season with a European Premier League.

I wouldn't be so sure. The club pushing for this sort of League/expanded CL the most are the likes of Real, Barca and Juve because they know their place at the top table is becoming under threat from the PL's TV revenue. Even with the way TV money is split in Spain and Italy (which is far more in favour of the bigger clubs) the big PL sides are making more than them and will make even more in the future. They want a bigger, richer European competition so that domestic money isn't as important as it is now. They're not going to then allow City to spend billions and put them under threat again. This is why the forced UEFA to change what FFP was meant to be and why, if this League happens, they'll put even stricter spending controls in place.

 

[BaZ87]

I can never see the spending being toned down tbh and it sounds like the English sides are pushing for this league more than anyone. Bigger and better squads will be needed and transfer fees will only go one way in the coming years. My post was half joking but when you consider the amount they've spent on defenders alone since Pep came in, I can see a club breaching 400mil in 2 transfer windows before 2025, if this league goes ahead.

I couldn't disagree more on both the spending point and who is most in favour of this League. As I touched on, when UEFA started talking about financial controls they were concerned about clubs being in debt - the big clubs didn't care about this, they were more concerned with another PSG or City coming along and that's why FFP was rewritten to limit what clubs could spend, not how much debt they could get in. If these same clubs are now looking to form this League, you can be sure that they'll do all they can to handicap the City's of this world or at least prevent another City.

And on the point of who is most in favour of this League and or an expanded CL, go look back at reports on these things for the last 10 years and it's Real and Juve. Of course the big PL sides are interested and will happily use this League as a gun to hold to the PL and UEFA's head in negotiations but it's Juve and Real in particular that are the biggest backers, to the point in which they have formally proposed these ideas or publicly endorsed them. Juve are the driving force behind the planned reformat of the CL and Perez already talked up this FIFA League over a year ago.

This news/threat is more for the benefit of UEFA than the PL. More European football is coming, it's just a case of whether the big boys will be playing it under the UEFA name or FIFA's and I'd suspect this is the big boys telling UEFA to give them more money from the expanded CL or we're off to join FIFA.