Poll: Premier League Shake-Up?

[BaZ87]

Wow you really are wasted here on OC forums, you really should be a top football journalist, with your obvious infinite knowledge and understanding on the complexities of football and football finances, I mean you clearly know far more than Henry winter even though he’s one of the mostly trusted writers in the country working for one of the biggest papers, In fact I expect to see you taking his place and writing for the times in short order ehh? Or could it just be you don’t agree with what’s written because it doesn’t match what your spouting currently and paints your club in a bad light?

I have just tweeted Henry winter that big BaZ87 over on Overclockers forums says “ your wrong and don’t have a clue about football finances” so all is right with the football world now

Thanks mate but we can just revisit the Newcastle takeover thread if you want to justify everything I've just said to you. I lost count of the amount of times I tried to explain basic things to you and you'd reply with "they can't do that" or "it's done mate". How did that work out?

Henry Winter is a football journalist, he's not an expert in finance or law. There are journalists that are experts in these areas and will provide far better insight into the realities and consequences of this proposal. You don't care about that though, he put a line in his article about Newcastle and it's given you something to complain about, at least admit that.

If you want to understand about these proposals and what they'll mean then read articles by Matt Slater in the Athletic, Tariq Panja for the New York Times, David Conn for the Guardian or Ben Rumsby in the Telegraph. This is their area, they know what can and can't be done and what the long term effects of this proposal might be.

Its just bribery. I hope they can't find the votes in the PL to carry this forward. If the EFL collapses it will have huge knock on effects for football and the PL. They are aware of that and will have to do something at some point.

Who is being bribed? The EFL clubs want this deal. The only losers from this deal would be the clubs outside the big 6 and this is where talks need to begin, to find a solution that suits as many of those clubs as possible.

Apologies, my response was worded badly. The agree to disagree bit was only towards your assertion that the top 6 are the only clubs that make the league what it is - where I think it's the breadth of teams, each with their own way of playing that make it as entertaining as it is.

I will admit I am a little "tinfoil hat" at the moment, as I still have a sour taste in my mouth from the whole NUFC takeover debarcle (and I'm annoyed that it is still dragging out).

In regards to the "cake and eat it" - I'm happy for all teams to pay an equal share for an equal say in something (obviously prize money and brand growth are given more to the top!). Then whatever can collectively be decided is a fair outcome, regardless of who it effects and how. Giving that saying power to under a third of the current teams doesn't sit well with me.

I'm happy for an 18 team league if it means more clubs can compete throughout the rest of the structure - again as a recent (and now seemingly regular) regigation candiate team supporter.

To be clear, what I said regarding the top 6 making the League was in regards to driving the finance. You could make up an 18 or 20 team League with those 6 + whichever mix of clubs from the rest of the PL and Championship and there would be no meaningful difference to the success of the League. Broadcasters aren't paying billions for Burnley, Southampton or whoever else - it's those 6 clubs that drive that revenue. Yes they need teams to play but it doesn't really make much difference who they are.

While we have a League containing clubs of all difference sizes and all who generate more financial value for the League then there will have to be compromises to keep everybody happy. I'm very much of the view that the top 6 would happily take a compromise of an 18 team PL and any extra voting rights would be a bonus to them. I'm not sure any of that is going to be achievable though and what happens next is anyone's guess.

 

[vanpeebles]

Hopefully the big 6 will be moved to the US or Dubai or somewhere that suits them more.

 

[Kill_Phil]

I have just tweeted Henry winter that big BaZ87 over on Overclockers forums says “ your wrong and don’t have a clue about football finances” so all is right with the football world now

Haha! But yeah I think baz has his top 6 blinkers on here. a lot of what they propose can be achieved without having to shift the balance of power, but they're not and are just chasing the £££ and self protectionism

 

[the wopster]

Thanks mate but we can just revisit the Newcastle takeover thread if you want to justify everything I've just said to you. I lost count of the amount of times I tried to explain basic things to you and you'd reply with "they can't do that" or "it's done mate". How did that work out?

Henry Winter is a football journalist, he's not an expert in finance or law. There are journalists that are experts in these areas and will provide far better insight into the realities and consequences of this proposal. You don't care about that though, he put a line in his article about Newcastle and it's given you something to complain about, at least admit that.

If you want to understand about these proposals and what they'll mean then read articles by Matt Slater in the Athletic, Tariq Panja for the New York Times, David Conn for the Guardian or Ben Rumsby in the Telegraph. This is their area, they know what can and can't be done and what the long term effects of this proposal might be.

Who is being bribed? The EFL clubs want this deal. The only losers from this deal would be the clubs outside the big 6 and this is where talks need to begin, to find a solution that suits as many of those clubs as possible.


To be clear, what I said regarding the top 6 making the League was in regards to driving the finance. You could make up an 18 or 20 team League with those 6 + whichever mix of clubs from the rest of the PL and Championship and there would be no meaningful difference to the success of the League. Broadcasters aren't paying billions for Burnley, Southampton or whoever else - it's those 6 clubs that drive that revenue. Yes they need teams to play but it doesn't really make much difference who they are.

While we have a League containing clubs of all difference sizes and all who generate more financial value for the League then there will have to be compromises to keep everybody happy. I'm very much of the view that the top 6 would happily take a compromise of an 18 team PL and any extra voting rights would be a bonus to them. I'm not sure any of that is going to be achievable though and what happens next is anyone's guess.

You mean this person here that said it is a power grab and likened it to China and it’s treatment of Hong Kong?
https://twitter.com/tariqpanja/status/1315550614236037120

 

[the wopster]

Haha! But yeah I think baz has his top 6 blinkers on here. a lot of what they propose can be achieved without having to shift the balance of power, but they're not and are just chasing the £££ and self protectionism

The problem is big BaZ can’t see that through his top6 blinkers

 

[Kenai]

Who is being bribed? The EFL clubs want this deal. The only losers from this deal would be the clubs outside the big 6 and this is where talks need to begin, to find a solution that suits as many of those clubs as possible.

Perhaps blackmail is more apt?

They're offering a big bailout to the EFL in return for power, or more accurately they're asking for more power in return for bailing out the EFL.

They're putting the other PL clubs in a position where to say no, will open up comments of 'the money was there but these guys said no, blame them'

 

[the wopster]

Perhaps blackmail is more apt?

They're offering a big bailout to the EFL in return for power, or more accurately they're asking for more power in return for bailing out the EFL.

They're putting the other PL clubs in a position where to say no, will open up comments of 'the money was there but these guys said no, blame them'

I would agree with that

 

[Stumble Bum]

Pretty certain Baz is being bribed by the so called 'elite 6' based on the bizarre defending of such a blatant power grab.

 

[mysticsniper]

Hopefully the big 6 will be moved to the US or Dubai or somewhere that suits them more.

They won't need to move, by removing the league Cup, cutting the prem down to 18 teams, it will save them around 10 games per season.

Just perfect for those elite tournaments where they can rake in millions upon millions.

 

[Grimley]

This is what I think the big clubs are trying to do & are trying to get this system in without everyone kicking up a fuss.
The big clubs stay as the big clubs, no relegation for them. the lower league clubs act as a 'farm system' club where the youngsters gain match experience & are watched by the scouts to determine if they are good enough to play at a higher level. These lower league teams are 'owned' by the bigger clubs & are bound by rules to keep these lower league clubs going. the clubs would then scrap their reserve sides & have these lower league clubs for their reserve/fringe/injury comeback 1st team players instead. There would be no promotion/relegation for these lower league clubs either.

Also I think that the next step if this does happen would be a scrapping of transfer fees. Players would be traded instead. Also a PL salary cap I think is coming too.

My reason for thinking this is because it would bring our football into a system similar to what they have in the USA in Major League Baseball, the National Hockey League & the NBA (NFL is planning a few development leagues I think) which does have its pros & cons (not to my way of thinking though), the cons mainly meaning the big money going into the big club owners pockets.

My opinion on this - NO don't let it happen.

 

[BaZ87]

You mean this person here that said it is a power grab and likened it to China and it’s treatment of Hong Kong?
https://twitter.com/tariqpanja/status/1315550614236037120

Christ, discussing anything with you is so difficult because you cannot read. I've said several times that this proposal is very clear, give us power and we'll give you money. How many times do I need to repeat that for you to understand it? It's a common thing with you, say one thing that disagrees with you and you interpret that as I've said something totally different.

I've repeatedly said that the power thing almost certainly won't be passed and tried to discuss the bigger picture. An 18 team PL in return for supporting the EFL is not a bad thing - the rest can be negotiated and an agreement can be found but for some reason everybody is getting caught up on the whole power/voting system.

Articles like Henry Winters are pointless because the proposal in this form won't pass. What people need to be doing is looking at the good parts of the proposal and then working out a way to keep as much of that as possible and negotiating the bad parts.

edit: and I'm disappointed to see that you didn't tweet Henry Winter.

Perhaps blackmail is more apt?

They're offering a big bailout to the EFL in return for power, or more accurately they're asking for more power in return for bailing out the EFL.

They're putting the other PL clubs in a position where to say no, will open up comments of 'the money was there but these guys said no, blame them'

I agree but this is all part of their negotiation. They're going in hard so that if they can negotiate it down to a status quo in terms of voting arrangement but cut the League down to 18 teams it seems like a win for everybody, except the 2 clubs that have been booted out of the PL.

We can sit here and argue about the existing proposal or break it down and look at the good points of it and work from there.

 

[Colonel_Klinck]

Who is being bribed? The EFL clubs want this deal. The only losers from this deal would be the clubs outside the big 6 and this is where talks need to begin, to find a solution that suits as many of those clubs as possible.

Any club that ever hopes to get promoted to the PL are being bribed. They are giving away voting rights and control for money now. The big 6 aren't doing this for altruistic reasons, its self interest.

I don't think the big 6 should have more power than the other clubs. I don't care if it hurts my club, it isn't just about my club, its about all clubs. This greed and grab for power by the big 6 is part of what is destroying the game. Yes let the clubs playing in Europe pull out of the LC. No the big 6 + 3 shouldn't have more power than the other PL clubs.

 

[BaZ87]

Any club that ever hopes to get promoted to the PL are being bribed. They are giving away voting rights and control for money now. The big 6 aren't doing this for altruistic reasons, its self interest.

I don't think the big 6 should have more power than the other clubs. I don't care if it hurts my club, it isn't just about my club, its about all clubs. This greed and grab for power by the big 6 is part of what is destroying the game. Yes let the clubs playing in Europe pull out of the LC. No the big 6 + 3 shouldn't have more power than the other PL clubs.

I don't know what you mean in that first sentence. The change in voting rights that this proposal is referring to is at PL level. What the EFL will be giving up is the League Cup (it's going to go anyway) and allowing the PL to negotiate their TV deal. In exchange they're going to receive 25% of total TV money and there will be a slight change in the play-off format. Fwiw, when the PL was formed (and Parry was part of the PL board) he offered the EFL a 20% deal which the EFL rejected, choosing to go it alone. That decision by the EFL has lead us to this point. PL revenues went through the roof and the EFL died on it's arse.

As for the 2nd point. My personal preference, despite the fact there's no hope of it happening, would be a total revenue sharing model and fan ownership. It's not realistic and it's not going to happen. You've again singled out the big 6 which I again find strange though. Rewind 6 months and it was the bottom 6 clubs attempting to hold the League to ransom, trying to block relegation and further hurt the EFL in order to benefit themselves. It was only due to the FA stepping in, with their golden share, that killed that idea off. None of the PL clubs want to help the EFL - Steve Parish admitted it in his article the other week. We live in a world where nobody gives you anything without something in return.

The issue here is that this is the only proposal on the table right now. Nobody else, whether that be the government or the other 14 PL clubs have come up with any solution. To be clear, I don't want the top 6 sides having total control either and I believe they're not expecting to get it too. This is the start of a negotiation that might go on for 2-3 years but a lot of people need to realise that there are lots of good things in it.

The EFL is ****** because of the gap in revenue between the Leagues. This leads to sides gambling on their future trying to make it to the promise land. This proposal closes that gap overnight, it also puts in hard spending caps to prevent teams pushing the boundaries. It also reserves money for stadium and infrastructure work (something Alan Sugar recommended years ago) so that clubs aren't mortgaging themselves to build a new stadium. These are all very good changes. The bad points are cutting the League to 18 teams but lets be fair, unless you are directly effected would anybody really say an 18 team PL is noticeably worse than a 20 team League? I don't think so. And then of course the power shift, giving the biggest sides more control of decisions moving forwards. This is the most controversial point but also the one that can be easily negotiated because it's nigh on impossible for these sides to force it through. Maybe you give them slightly more say but you get written guarantees on x, y & z which you consider big no no's or maybe it's point blank rejected.

 

[BaZ87]

I've added a poll to the thread with 3 options regarding the current proposal. The first option is the proposal as it stands, the second is a compromise of the current proposal and the third is to do nothing. If anybody can come up with another, realistic, option then I'll add it to the poll.

 

[fez]

Also I think that the next step if this does happen would be a scrapping of transfer fees. Players would be traded instead. Also a PL salary cap I think is coming too.

My reason for thinking this is because it would bring our football into a system similar to what they have in the USA in Major League Baseball, the National Hockey League & the NBA (NFL is planning a few development leagues I think) which does have its pros & cons (not to my way of thinking though), the cons mainly meaning the big money going into the big club owners pockets.

My opinion on this - NO don't let it happen.

The only reason those sports in the US can do that is because no one else but the US actually play their sports. The fact the Americans like to call things the "world series" is frankly indicative of their world view. If the PL introduced a wage cap and other countries didn't, the PL would become a joke league within a few years.

 

[Grimley]

You have a point there, didn't think of that.

 

[Shamikebab]

Indeed, adjustment of transfer fees/wage caps etc is impossible unless the world does too. Otherwise we're just killing our league.

 

[BaZ87]

This is the problem with multiple leagues across multiple countries. Unless you have a single approach across the board then somebody will always be left behind. Whether it's the members system in Spain or the 51% fan ownership in Germany, these leagues have partially been disadvantaged compared to the PL due to their ownership structures. From day 1 we've always had private owners that have been willing to pump money into their clubs and in turn into the League.

The absolute ideal solution would be an across the board set-up with 51% fan ownership, shared revenues and a wage cap. Getting that just in the PL is as close to impossible as could be, let alone right across Europe.

 

[robfosters]

Not even voting as I don’t want any of those options.

 

[BaZ87]

Not even voting as I don’t want any of those options.

What do you propose instead and what would be wrong with the 2nd option in your opinion Rob?