Project Management "Methodologies" - Agile?

[panthro]

I want to take some project management training; having working in a project management environment within a supply chain environment, I think undertaking some sort of training in a specific methodology might help?

I've been reading about Agile and a lot of people having been saying that it's relevance is going to surpass that of PRINCE 2 etc. Also from what I've read it's quite specific to the IT industry...is this true? I work in engineering, construction and utilities so would want to train in something that is relevant to these industries. Any suggestions or thoughts would be helpful. Thanks

 

[randomshenans]

Traditionally, you saw PRINCE2 in a lot of public sector environments. You're seeing more PMP certs around now, from PMI and you have a number of "agile" trainings you can do, such as SCRUM master, or PMIs ACPM - I did all my PDUs and training for the ACPM, just need to take the exam.
While some projects are suited to certain methodologies, you can draw from which make sense to that particular project. Obviously waterfall merely states the flow in which a project is undertaken... where as agile is more a case of delivering smaller pieces quicker, and checking more on how that affects the overall aim.

 

[nas]

I obtained both Foundation and Practitioner PRINCE2 qualifications this year and found that it'll provide direction insofar as giving you an understanding of the processes involved in managing a project.

The exams are structured in a way for you to demonstrate (mainly) your understanding of roles and responsibilities of individuals involved - the rest is pretty much common sense.

I did mine with APMG, so you can have a glance at what they offer.

It is fairly common in ICT but equally common in engineering and regeneration/construction programmes.

 

[dowie]

with some agile methodologies you don't have 'project managers'

for example in Scrum the relevant roles you might be able to transition into could be product owner (though that takes some BA related skills) or Scrum master

 

[peterwalkley]

Agile is popular in IT because our ability to estimate and plan is **** compared to real engineers. Much as it gets dressed up with fancy terms, it is just another way of trying to herd a team of devs to delivering something in a time period (usually called a sprint), whilst keeping some control over scope creep and a vague eye in the general direction of where you think the end lies. The project management part is just having an idea of how much budget you spent for what you achieved so far.

IT also has the 'advantage' that you can deliver part of a project and still have something usable. Doesn't apply to real engineers: who will accept a suspension bridge without the deck, or a car consisting of the chassis, 2 wheels and an MP3 player.

Agile only works if everyone buys in: the customer, line and project management, devs, testers, operations and so on. The moment one of them starts wanting contracts written up front or decides they are going to stick with their existing processes you are dead in the water, even though you might not realise it until a lot more time and money has been spent.

Yes I'm an old cynic

 

[NickK]

Swings and roundabouts.

Agile works but all 'stakeholders' in a large organisation need to drive the product (picking up the their stakeholder problem and doing the work). Old school silo'd organisations where the stakeholder simply says fill out this form and then gives you something that doesn't mean anything to the next step.. doesn't.

Old school financials seems to think that you can estimate up ahead of time all the human resources needed, all the costs etc. Most projects are shining examples of where that is attempted and fails.

Agile processes are normally best financed by giving a budget for a year then a maximum opex exit criteria for the operation of the service for example.

Also 'agile' often means people don't think about tracking costs.. they just spend spend spend.. the reality is you can't double count the dollar:
a) Financials need to support - time boxed and with criteria. Financials needs to track just as the development burn down does.
b) HR and resourcing needs to be able to staff the project rapidly - it's not good enough to spend 6 months in a process before an offer comes out.
c) stakeholders ...
d) development and delivery..

I spent yesterday doing head count requests for 50+ staff to report into me and the programme as a whole has 70+ scrum teams... it's the biggest thing I've ever been involved in.. and it's agile, chaotic and delivers. However programme-wise you need a budget tracker in the team.. that's where a programme manager can help track, however tracking and attempting to govern based on cost are two different things. I'm a simple technical product manager (I've had P&L product management ownership before).

We dismissed our project and programme manager - not down to 'agile' but because of their attitude. We demand that people pick up and own the problem to completion, not simply push paper, point fingers, or in one case their focus was all about adding project managers to their 'team'..

 

[-BA-]

Thought I would add to this thread rather than start another. I have the opportunity to do my PRINCE2 early next year and wonder if anyone can recommend any decent training providers.

I see APMG mentioned further up in this thread but they seem to not be the actual training provider. I had looked at the Knowledge Academy but they seem to have some less than favourable reviews.

Any feedback welcome please.

 

[Dis86]

What a waste of time all of those things sound!

 

[Wink]

Look at DSDM Atern for an Agile approach with some structure

As others have said, the methodology and approach used should depend on the type of project being delivered and the environment.

If you're just starting I'd personally look towards PRINCE2 as I think that'll give you a better understanding of the fundamentals.

You can actually combine the two and you'll find material on using both DSDM and PRINCE2 together.

 

[mid_gen]

What a waste of time all of those things sound!

I guess a career in project management isn't for you!

I would learn Prince2 over any agile, it's a much more respected certification. I've done the SCRUM certification and it's totally mickey mouse.

I ran one of the first big agile dev teams in a big dinosaur bank and it was an absolute nightmare fighting the PMO the whole time....but when we cranked out a product on budget in a quarter the time they usually turn around in, they just had to suck it up and get on board.

I wouldn't ever go through the pain of an agile project where every single person involved wasn't completely on board with and understood the process.

 

[Dis86]

I guess a career in project management isn't for you!

I would learn Prince2 over any agile, it's a much more respected certification. I've done the SCRUM certification and it's totally mickey mouse.

I ran one of the first big agile dev teams in a big dinosaur bank and it was an absolute nightmare fighting the PMO the whole time....but when we cranked out a product on budget in a quarter the time they usually turn around in, they just had to suck it up and get on board.

I wouldn't ever go through the pain of an agile project where every single person involved wasn't completely on board with and understood the process.

Except I've worked in project management for 5 years. Managing individual jobs worth over £60,000,000. Every single one I've worked on has been delivered on time, under budget and with 0 LTI's. I'd call that pretty successful.

 

[NickK]

I would learn Prince2 over any agile, it's a much more respected certification. I've done the SCRUM certification and it's totally mickey mouse.

I ran one of the first big agile dev teams in a big dinosaur bank and it was an absolute nightmare fighting the PMO the whole time....but when we cranked out a product on budget in a quarter the time they usually turn around in, they just had to suck it up and get on board.

I wouldn't ever go through the pain of an agile project where every single person involved wasn't completely on board with and understood the process.

Indeed.

 

[Mr^B]

Except I've worked in project management for 5 years. Managing individual jobs worth over £60,000,000. Every single one I've worked on has been delivered on time, under budget and with 0 LTI's. I'd call that pretty successful.

That's lovely - but (no offence) probably not a real-world representation of the complexity of some of projects which spawned the PRINCE2/Agile way of approaching the delivery of them.

Or are you saying that if you were handed ANY project with ANY budget, scope and timescales that you have a full-proof way of delivering it successfully?

 

[Dis86]

That's lovely - but (no offence) probably not a real-world representation of the complexity of some of projects which spawned the PRINCE2/Agile way of approaching the delivery of them.

Or are you saying that if you were handed ANY project with ANY budget, scope and timescales that you have a full-proof way of delivering it successfully?

So subsea engineering isn't highly complex? Ok.

 

[Mr^B]

So subsea engineering isn't highly complex? Ok.

I didn't say that, I said that the delivery of the projects is not complex, not the subject of the projects.

What if you were working on a subsea engineering project, and you had all the logistics in place, specialist materials fabricated, specialist installers flown in from around the globe to complete the project, you have 2 days to meet the deadline and it's looking good...

...and the project owner/sponsor suddenly wants it installed 3,000 miles away - and at a different depth, or something else that means that all the specialist fabricated materials are useless...

Would you still get that completed on time and on budget?

That's the sort of projects that these sort of methodologies can help with.

 

[Dis86]

I didn't say that, I said that the delivery of the projects is not complex, not the subject of the projects.

What if you were working on a subsea engineering project, and you had all the logistics in place, specialist materials fabricated, specialist installers flown in from around the globe to complete the project, you have 2 days to meet the deadline and it's looking good...

...and the project owner/sponsor suddenly wants it installed 3,000 miles away - and at a different depth, or something else that means that all the specialist fabricated materials are useless...

Would you still get that completed on time and on budget?

That's the sort of projects that these sort of methodologies can help with.

None of those methodologies could help with that. It's simply not a possibility given that the life cycles for these projects are 5 years or more. Also...The subject itself whilst highly complex isn't what I'm referring to either. The logistics of it are huge despite you think it's "not complex". Lol.

We're talking management of multiple high technology fabricators. All of whom have dozens of sub-suppliers some are the only companies in the world to make what they make.

We have vessels to coordinate where every day of delay costs about £200k.

Field specialists. Some of whom are literally the only people in the world who can do what they do.

Work forces numbering in the thousands to coordinate.

The last project I worked on - I managed to get the umbilicals to arrive early in order to meet a flexible pipe installation vessel. That meant we only needed one vessel instead of 2. Cost saved - £2M. We also chucked in some subsea structures at the same time. Meant we didn't have to use the structures installation vessel to pick them up and transport them or a separate barge. Cost saved £500k.

Project management methodologies used - 0.

 

[mid_gen]

Project management methodologies used - 0.

You will be using many elements of the mentioned project management methodologies.

Prince2 isn't some gimmicky new trendy buzzword technique. It was created by the UK government back in the 80s as an exercise to standardise and document well-established tried and tested project management frameworks.

 

[-BA-]

Anyone had any dealings with a training provider called Simetral?

 

[Gornall]

None of those methodologies could help with that. It's simply not a possibility given that the life cycles for these projects are 5 years or more. Also...The subject itself whilst highly complex isn't what I'm referring to either. The logistics of it are huge despite you think it's "not complex". Lol.

We're talking management of multiple high technology fabricators. All of whom have dozens of sub-suppliers some are the only companies in the world to make what they make.

We have vessels to coordinate where every day of delay costs about £200k.

Field specialists. Some of whom are literally the only people in the world who can do what they do.

Work forces numbering in the thousands to coordinate.

The last project I worked on - I managed to get the umbilicals to arrive early in order to meet a flexible pipe installation vessel. That meant we only needed one vessel instead of 2. Cost saved - £2M. We also chucked in some subsea structures at the same time. Meant we didn't have to use the structures installation vessel to pick them up and transport them or a separate barge. Cost saved £500k.

Project management methodologies used - 0.

Hmm.

You will be without a doubt using elements of Project Management methodologies. Just because you don't realise you are applying them doesn't mean they aren't used.

Does it mean you're less competent, clearly not. But the arrogance of completely dismissing them could get you unstuck.

Many PM positions will require in-depth knowledge of many methodologies, so I hope you're in a job for life

 

[Mr^B]

None of those methodologies could help with that. It's simply not a possibility given that the life cycles for these projects are 5 years or more.

That's exactly the point - they exist for projects OTHER than the type of projects you work on.

It doesn't mean they aren't useful, or don't add value - as has been mentioned you probably already use a number of concepts in PM methodologies, you just don't know it.

You couldn't use your approach to delivering the sort of projects that I work on, and vice-versa.