Purchased a small French lightweight hot hatch - Renault Clio 172 Cup & NOW 182 Trophy

[Gibbo]

Hi there

As there is a few Peugeot fans here, can't really find a Peugeot thread as sorts, as I originally mentioned I would also love to find a real nice 106 GTI, unmolested example in great condition, a few have popped up.

Question is too experts, particular for future values do you think there will be much difference in value between a PH1 and PH2 GTI, from what I can tell the PH1 had none body coloured bumpers and cloth interior. Whereas PH2 had body coloured bumpers and the half leather interior, were there any other more serious changes?

Out of colours what do people think will be the most sought after:
Sundance yellow
Blaze yellow (really nice gold colour)
Diablo red

Those seem to me the three colours that seem to get snapped up, also I think none sunroof model is probably always worth more but maybe not critical to the cars value.

Seen a diablo red, under 40k miles at a fair price, tempted to grab it and just garage it then as free time allows restore that one too and have two totally mint little French classic hatch backs.

 

[Gibbo]

I keep looking at 306 Rallye's after this thread! My first car was a 95 1.6 XS and Peugeot's have always had a place in my heart. They are still incredibly cheap for what they are. With throttle bodies the engines make 200bhp.

Good cars, I just in this kind of car, smaller and lighter the better.

Also remember the Clio 2.0l is good for around 190HP with throttle bodies, exhaust etc. Will be interest what mine makes once 182 mani and PMS exhaust is on the car with EFI remap, will be chuffed with anything 180 plus, might be a stretch but shall see.

 

[Gibbo]

The Rallye is 1163 which is very light for its size. Also the 6 speed is a peach and accelerates on par with a Renault Sport with arguably a stronger engine. The XU engine is an almost legendary engine powering Group B (205 T16), WRC (206 WRC) and F2 kit cars in the 306 Maxi. They make in the region of 230 BHP with just cams throttle bodies and basic bolt ons.

Yeah still a great car, just my goals were more size and weight, smaller and lighter the better, hence the 172 and it is just nice that the 172 happens to have close to 170HP out the box too.

Also checked the tyre pressures, 33psi front, 31psi rear, so dropped the fronts to 30psi and it has made quite a remarkable improvement to the understeer, car/tyres are certainly sensitive to pressure changes.

 

[Gibbo]

Hi there

Had some fun at Curborough sprint circuit yesterday at the OcUK track day meet:

The car was huge fun, been pretty much an original cup but all fresh it handled and gripped fantastic and was extremely progressive, easy to drive at 10/10 tenths and not get into trouble.
Yes due to only running -0.5 negative camber on the front the car was pushing a little and the outer edge of the tyres got a good scrubbing, I've now got a pair of camber bolts for the car as the outer edge of tyres were also scrubbing a little on road too, so it absolutely needs a little more front negative camber, so am gonna set it to around -1.00 per side and see how it goes.

Car engine maintained temperature perfectly, no overheating at all which for such a short spring circuit is very impressive as my E46 M3 gets pretty hot here.
The brakes were also flawless, no fading, hugely powerful and only thing of note was smoking pads, not an issue with a couple of cool down laps.

The car is a little soft, as are the tyres particular on a red hot sunny day like yesterday, but as this is not a track car, on the road they perform excellent as they grip from the word go and are excellent in the wet.

Overall the car was huge fun, no issues and did I say a lot of fun.


P.S. Last bit of the puzzle has arrived, 182 manifold, PMS manifold back exhaust system with 200 cel cat and silencer. Once fitted off to EFI for a map, hopefully all this will improve the mid range 2500-4500 region.

 

[Gibbo]

is the m3 going i feel its getting pushed out now

Nope, I am in the M3 today.

The Clio is fun, but then I get in the M3 and oh my it feels so tight, zero slop and the RWD fun.
M3 is going nowhere, taking it for MOT later and just about to buy another set of wheels for it along with some super sticky AR1 track tyres.

I have now what I consider pretty much a perfect 100k garage:
SVR - Epic AWD fun car, huge power, silly fast. With a cracking and popping loud V8.
M3 - Proper focused track car which drives lovely on road and is RWD, plus in my view BMW's best M car ever! Glorious straight 6 with carbon air box.
Clio - Maybe the best FWD handling and most fun hatch ever made? With a lovely fizzy and buzzy 2.0 4 pot engine.

Not a bad 100k garage!

 

[Gibbo]

Video from yesterday:

 

[Gibbo]

Pure Motorsport lightweight stainless exhaust system arrived:

It is a modular system, this one is designed to fit 182 manifold, I also have a 182 manifold, this one has 200 cel performance catalyst and centre silencer with the standard stealth (downturned) back box, noise wise its probably marginally louder than stock system, of course been modular swapping in a de-cat pipe or even removing the centre silencer is easily accomplished should one ever wish for more noise.

As my car has a Klarious ECP cheap exhaust on it, I wanted to get a nice quality system on it and the PMS system really is indeed very nice, good welds and a lovely polished finish which will really finish off the underside.

Shall also remove the spring from the brake bias, that should hopefully stop the rears locking causing instability when braking hard from high speeds.


Next step is off to see Chris at EFI for a remap, question is should I pop an ITG or other performance panel filter in the stock air box or do they not make any additional power?

 

[Gibbo]

Have a chat with Chris and see what he advises. He was really great with information regarding hardware when I was enquiring. I'm off to see his early next year

I did and he adviced 182 manifold and full exhaust, he said PMS is best, so that is what I got, he said to expect 10HP from it, he said the remap tends to make 5-7HP, maybe 7-8HP with a panel filter, of course peak numbers, the gains in mid-range are far greater.

My guess is car is 165-169HP stock, so hoping it makes around 180HP, of course he will dyno it before mapping but of course it will have the 182 manifold, exhaust on etc which I am sure may improve its stock figures due to better breathing etc.

 

[Gibbo]

So he said panel filter is better over an open cone? I'd just go with that if he's advising it. He certainly seems to know his stuff and is well regarded in the Renault tuning circles

He did say a good induction kit can work, but did not really say which ones, I shall ask him, he said panel filters normally give 1-2HP over a new renault paper filter, so they give a little, but not much. I guess the question is does a stock paper filter maintain peak performance longer than say a foam or cotton performance filter?

 

[Gibbo]

There's a 205 Rallye for sale at £7k, or as near as damn it, I've just seen on Facebook. SV Performance Imports are selling it.

Claims it's one of, if not the best, example out there. There's some money in old French hatchbacks!

Seen it, I expect it will be worth more in some years, but for me it does nothing for me.
If I buy another French hatch it will either be a perfect 106 GTi example or a Clio 182 Trophy, there was a 182 Trophy on ebay with no reserve with low miles, they had a buy it now at £8950 for weeks, never sold, so moved it to a BID auction with no reserve I said to myself if it stays under 6k I shall buy it as its a 7-8k car all day. It sold at £7500 so at the upper scale of the market.

Probably not really any better than my cup to drive, but the trophy looks nice in red and only 500 units, plus those sach dampers are rather special.

Though I was watching quite a nice R5GT that was clean, though not completely original, but it went what seemed cheap at £5100, still a very old car, but old school turbo hot hatch.

 

[Gibbo]

Parts get fitted tomorrow, grabbed an ITG panel filter as well.

Remap by Chris at EFI this Saturday.

 

[Gibbo]

Hi there


So the exhaust has been fitted today, the garage did not enjoy the job, took around five hours alone to fit the exhaust due to the subframe having to come down in order to be able to get the 182 manifold fitted, all new gaskets fitted throughout entire exhaust system along with brand new 02 sensors as well, again I don't mess about, everything brand new! Picture of the exhaust installed:

Looks good, also both front CV boots were showing some wear, very marginal hole in both, so replaced both CV boots for good measure.
Camber bolts also installed and now have an extra degree of negative camber each side, so now -1.50 per side negative, can get upto around -2.00ish if so desired but feel -1.50 will be enough.


Upon first startup and driving the exhaust was kind of boomy at which point I thought mmmmm not so sure about this and damn I am glad I got the catted and silenced version.
But after 30-40 minutes driving the boom and drone seems to have reduced a lot, I am guessing it is furring up inside or whatever you wish to call it.
It sounds OK, as good as a 4 pot can sound I suppose, the induction side of this car is where there is more potential for good sound. I would say at high RPM its got a nice burble and the blips on downshifts sound good.

Car certainly feels like its got more go everywhere and the top-end seems to rev faster.
Handling is improved for sure, car has a lot more front end grip for sure, so clearly needed that additional negative camber.

I got the ITG panel filter but am deeply unimpressed by it, up removing it from the plastic seal there was a huge amout of oil peeling away and excess oil generally on the filter.
Plus then upon putting it in the air box it seems like say 1mm too small in width and is not sitting nicely, in the end I put stock fiilter back in, not happy at all.

Shall probably take it back to ECP tomorrow and see if they will give me a refund. Surprised as ITG is normally good, but over oiled and does not fit well, not happy.

Remap this weekend!

 

[Gibbo]

I know others will tell you not to bother, but I quite enjoy the noise of the KTR (K-Tec) induction kit on my 182. You can always replace the original airbox later for sale if the new owner wants originality.

Yeah everyone has said this, like stock air box and really don't like open cone filters, suck in too much hot air.
If I come across one second hand I would not mind the carbon fibre ITG Maxogen cold air intake as its a sealed carbon air box using original cold air ducting, bit expensive at £450 but they pop up second hand for £150 ish from time to time, but shall see what it makes.

Shall take the panel filter with me to ITG on Saturday, see what Chris makes of it.

 

[Gibbo]

The extra camber is a beautiful thing, my god it was such a yobbo before, but then you can literally just throw it and I can now really feel it cocking a rear wheel in the air, front-end grip is massively improved and the R1R tyres really do feel like poo poo to a blanket especially in the cooler ambient temperatures of this morning.

Also rear spring removed from brake bias, which should not be there, car is now mega stable under braking, such incredible brakes on this car!

 

[Gibbo]

Hi there


So this morning I made the trip to EFI Parts for my custom mapping session on the dyno at a cost of £179. Car setup and ready to get some baseline figures:

Chris was very professional, really knows his stuff and told me Cup 172's typically when stock will make 166-171BHP if they are healthy and as I have the 182 manifold and PMS exhaust system fitted it should be worth 5-6HP additional if the cars factory ECU has not leaned or gone too rich due to manifold change.
The first run car made 175HP, then 176HP and a final run at 177HP. This pretty much means if the car was stock, still 172 manifold and exhaust setup it would have probably made around 169-171HP, but the moment I fitted the 182 manifold and PMS exhaust system, the 5-7k rpm pull felt stronger, so when Chris said to expect 5-6HP from a 182 manifold / cat setup he was pretty much bang on.

Chris said, very healthy car indeed and once mapped to not expect much at the top-end as the fuelling is pretty good as it is, so expect maybe 180HP.

So Chris spent close to an hour fine tuning the car, getting the fuelling where he wanted and improving the drive ability of the car and reducing the cat warming setup so it no longer drives poorly when cold, something Renault do on purpose to fast warm the cat up, the downside is it makes the car feel very flat for first 30-60s of driving around 2000rpm.

Fine tuning complete and the car made 180HP and 161lb/ft, a result I am very happy with as the cars only modifications are 182 manifold and full PMS sport cat exhaust system. Chris said a panel filter put it in the 182HP region or a full CAI maybe 185HP but then the issues of heat soak and less power in real world hence the favourite option generally been PH1 air box or V6 air box, or the ITG Maxogen setup.

Dyno graph:

You can see he has achieved more power and torque everywhere, now on the graph your maybe thinking that don't look like much and your never gonna feel 3-5HP gain, but do remember this is a 1000kg car.
I handed over the monies and drove home and within the first two minutes of driving the improvements can be felt, the car is smoother, it pulls away more cleanly, the 2000-4500rpm range feels transformed, it feels like its gained a solid 20-30HP here, of course it has not but the fact it feels like it has really shows you the improvement in drive ability. Coming out of corners now if your under 5000rpm are no longer an issue, before the car could feel flat due to how the stock map really leans out to give that kick. Whereas now the car feels much stronger, the kick is still present and the pull to 5000-7500rpm is just very clean.

A vast improvement, well worth the money and very happy. Might be taking a venture to Blyton Park in it end of this month as a few mates are going and they said in the Clio it will be great fun as its a track that suits smaller and lighter cars.

What is next, really nothing, that is really now as far as this car goes, anything further would detract too much from the car Renault designed, its an incredible and fun road car, pretty handy on a circuit too and very easy to drive. Now just to enjoy.

 

[Gibbo]

Blyton is perfect for small cars like these. I barely get out of third gear. It is a great leveler as my mates MX5 is no where to be seen on circuits like Donny and Snetterton but we can have a bit of fun on Blyton without the fear of running into barriers like Caldwell for example which is also great for cars like these.

Shall get myself booked on it then and get my Blyton cherry popped.

 

[Gibbo]

Full paint restoration completed by Autobrite:

Top job as always, car looks better than it did the day it arrived in Renaults show room, that is this cars restoration complete, first time I think a car was ever truly completely by me, now time to continue with the M3.

I probably have the most mechanically sound and cleanest 172 Cup in the UK, maybe in existence considering mechanically every is now fully refreshed when it comes to suspension, brakes etc.

 

[Gibbo]

wow looks brand new

Mechanically it pretty much is.

 

[Gibbo]

Amazing transformation mate, very nice.
What did the paint correction involve and how much if you dont mind me asking. What kind of defects did it fix etc. My 350z would benefit I feel

There was a lot of light scratches which are now 99% removed, there were some deep scratches which are improved and far less noticeable but still able to see if pointed out.
Swirling removed.
Interior de-fogged, to remove any odour from previous owner, paint sealed, wheels sealed, interior cleaned etc.
2 days work.

£300

 

[Gibbo]

Hi there

OK the little French car is doing what French cars do, being temperamental.

It has not being used much over last couple of months, anyway I took it out last week and it was fine.
Drove it yesterday and morning and I could swear there was a minor hesitation at steady state throttle or partial loads but dismissed it and in afternoon it was none existent. Then driving home it was certainly hesitating, felt like a coil pack / HT lead down but very intermittent.

Drove to work this morning, all fine, then at lunch hesitating, so decided to swap the HT leads out, if anything marginally worse, then fine again. Drove home and it was really bad, when it does it you have to let off and then sometimes its fine or you have to floor it at which point it pulls like normal.

As car was fully serviced (major) less than a thousand miles ago, spark plugs are also new.

The only items left that I did not replace are the:
- Coil Pack at back of engine that the HT leads plug into.
- Map sensor
- Injectors


My guess is its one of the above three, if it helps narrow it down the problem only seems to be apparent on a fully warm engine, car has vpower99 so unlikely to be bad fuel.

To further explain it feels like a missfire (no bangs) or incorrect fuelling, it is intermittent, full throttle seems fine though maybe down on power but that could be placebo. When it is doing it the exhaust is burbling, sometimes happens at idle which makes me think coil pack.

As I've done HT leads, next stop is coil pack as £40 from Renault and very easy to swap out, if still present then I am thinking injectors as doubt map sensor would do this but I suppose I can just disconnect that to try and rule it out, but the way it feels when it happens is as if the engine is not sparking or fuelling right, I'd suggest lean rather than rich as no smell of fuel hence me thinking coil pack or an injector going down. If its an injector I will just buy 4 new and change them all, is Renault best bet or is there an alternative of same quality without the £250 price tag?