Purchased a small French lightweight hot hatch - Renault Clio 172 Cup & NOW 182 Trophy

[Gibbo]

I run substantially more aggressive than even DS2500s on the front (DS.11's) and standard ECP Pagids on the back which has been fine for track work. Just read up on the MOT issue with rear brake efficiency on the Cups to see how little braking force they apply.

Similarly on discs there is very little benefit to grooved/drilled as they are essentially the same discs. In fact most of the drilled ones you see on eBay are plain Brembos with holes drilled by a third party. One less thing to fail as far as I'm concerned.

I run plain HC's, sometimes up to 30 min sessions on track in this summer weather and they continue to work absolutely fine. No judder etc.

Good to know then. Have you ran DS2500 on the Clio or just the DS.11’s? I know DS is a track pad and can be noisy.

Just want the brakes to be very confident, good modulation and powerful. As they are now they are just OK but for all I know it’s got cheapo pads and cheapo disc and is probably running 15yr brake fluid.

Front pad choice needs to be a quietish pad, not too much dust and the best stopping and modulation I can get. So guess it’s a choice between DS2500 and EBC yellow.

For rear I’ll do as you say, stock rear disc/bearings with factory Renault pads too.

 

[Gibbo]

Not sure if anyone has been inspired by the thread but an orange 53 plate 172 with 94k mileage and belt changes done is being advertised for £925 on Facebook in Lowestoft.

They are truly epic buys, I only wanted a 172 cup but I would have jumped on a 182 in liquid yellow if one had come available and not insane money, but generally they go for crazy money, its best colour and so few were made. There was only one for sale at time, it was £4000 with over 100k miles, which was not for me, but I believe even that sold.

But if your not bothered about a limited colour, they are great buys, there are some flame red or flame orange 182's which is a reasonably rare colour and from time to time you see one appear at a fair price, certainly something to consider.

Belts/pulleys/service is certainly worth paying extra for, because if your doing it properly and including water pump, rocker cover reseal and dephaser, its nearly a grand, so any car with it done recently is worth an additional £500 easily. Just watch out for those who only change the belt on high milers and did not do the dephaser, idler pulley and water pump, otherwise your in for the full bill again, some cheap out and do as little as possible. I did the whole lot, now my car is good for five years minimum.

 

[Gibbo]

I've always preferred to by these cheaper needing the belts doing, and paying for it to be done by a specialist that i trust. Luckily, one of the best is local to me in Nottingham though. So many have had belts done on the cheap nowadays and had issues later down the line because of it.

Belts and dephaser is about £600 from memory, but last 5 years. Its not stupid money if you plan on keeping the car for a while. Plus using a proper specialist, they'll normally find issues while working on the car. I've always been advised against doing the water pump unless it's leaking or isn't moving as it should when checked. It's not a common issue on these, and i believe it's driven on the Aux belt, so not as big a deal is it does fail. Never had an issue with a leaky cam cover either. had 4 now and never changed the seals.

I would also recommend getting the gearbox oil changed on a new purchase unless proof is there though, as these do leak and can run low and fail.

182 orange is inferno Orange, similar numbers to Racing blue 182's. The Flame Red only came in 172's both ph1 and ph2 though.

A lot of the time with these, people advertise the belts has being done, but when you dig into the details, what they basically mean is they have a receipt from 4+ years ago, or there mate did it who is a mechanic. Either way i'd factor a belt change to be safe in these circumstances unless prove of a decent specialist has done the job. It's worth noting that the Aux belt needs doing every 3 years too, which gets forgotten a lot of the time and when these go 9 times out of 10 they take the timing belt with them.

In regards to Brake pads, i ran standard Brembo Pads in the front, with braided hoses and high temp fluid at Donington Park on a Track day in November, granted conditions were cooler than this summer. But i managed up to 10 laps at one point before i felt brake fade. I'd been taking it steady throughout the day only doing 3-4 fast laps followed by a cooling lap to preserve them. I'd say unless you're doing lots of track time in it, just run standard pads on the front too, with better hoses and fluid. Could always run a proper track pad for track days and switch back to road pads for road use if you felt it was required.

Agreed, its why in a good way mine not having anything done was not a bad thing, as I got a 1 owner, 50k miles car cheap and then had all the work done to a very high standard by a well regarded specialist. Of course I had the lot done, belts, dephaser, idler pulley, water pump, rocker cover gasket, major service (NGK plugs), coolant change, oil change, gearbox oil change. The whole lot, along with a full suspension refresh (still some to do) and a full brake refresh incoming.

 

[Gibbo]

I suspect that rattle from top-end is the dephaser pulley.
He says belts changed, but no proof, that suggest to me they were changed but on the cheap, so only belt done. Leaving original dephaser.

My cup was quiet when cold, once it was warm it rattled like crazy from the top-end at idle, even with some revs, the car in short sounded like a diesel but twice as loud, was very bad, sounded properly ruined.
New dephaser, now its super quiet and silky smooth.

So in short it could just need that, of course that means changing belt again etc. So budget £500-£800 depending how far your gonna go, water pump, rocker cover reseal etc.

 

[Gibbo]

God damn, even though I have my mind set on a mk2 3MPS I keep reading the updates on this thread and find myself browsing 172/182 cliosports nearby. I had a 172 a few years ago and it was such fun to drive, not much refinement but it's not designed for that of course

This has appeared for sale close to me in the last week or so, well looked after and really liking that colour but feels like it's commanding a fairly high price

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201808169568453?

Very nice, inferno orange, rare colour. Though its a fab car, its over priced because he is betting on the low miles, rare colour and condition to bring him more. But my criteria for a 182 was that it was a genuine cup and not a FF cup, that is a proper cup model which certainly helps value as they were 20-30kg lighter than FF cups and much lower numbers.

 

[Gibbo]

Anyone here got experience of Toyo R1R and AD08R, I was gonna get AD08R, but I keep hearing great things about the R1R, saying its essentially an 888 but designed for wet use with the tread blocks and deeper 6.5mm, people saying dry grip is more or less on a par with 888 particular once down to around 5mm but that they work from cold and are exceptional in the wet.

 

[Gibbo]

I'm almost at the point of picking up the phone to go take a look. What do you reckon is a fair price on that then?

Whatever your willing to pay, condition looks exceptional and for me only downsides is lack of original seats and 5+ owners. Its a £3000 - £3500 car all day long based on condition and miles, I'd say it needs no money spending on it either based on service, belts, pulleys and new tyres been fitted. I am sure it will sell at £4000, maybe even £4500, it is just down to what you personally feel it is worth and that is how it is with cars. Someone who wants an inferno genuine cup with low miles and is hunting for one and see that will no doubt just pay the price.

 

[Gibbo]

Take a look at Nankang AR-1 @Gibbo

I have, shall have a set of those coming for the M3 to put on another set of wheels, they look amazing for track and hot summer days, very fast tyre indeed, M3 cup cars run them and since changing to those they are running 1:17-1:18 consistent lap times around Donnington in race conditions, which is a good 2s or so improvement over the previous control tyre which was the Nankang NS-2R soft compound, that is no longer available, hence the switch to AR-1 and the lap times came right down. It is said to be pretty much on a par with the incredible DZ03G which is now illegal for road use and was setting times within a second of slicks generally, so the AR-1 is very good.

I just feel is it maybe too much for a Clio with road use, would I ever be able to generate enough heat into them on the road to extract their performance because as with all proper semi slicks, they don't work great when cold and take some additional effort to get heat into them.
Trust me I have considered putting on 888R or AR-1 but it would probably be a waste.

This is why I was swung towards AD08R, many think its a semi slick, it is in fact not, but is a very high performing extreme summer tyre with generally dry levels of grip exceeding any other, including Michelins and of course AD08R has re-inforced sidewalls which can really awaken a cars front-end, which is why many like them, probably not such a requirement though in a Clio that weighs only a tonne. AD08R does seem highly recommended, can get a set for £400 on the Clio, versus around £600 for a set of 888R or AR-1.

Of course the attraction of the R1R is how popular it is in sprint and autocross racing, where there is no time to warm up a tyre and it needs to perform immediately and it seems very popular in such circles and is also popular amongst track day enthusiast who use the R1R as a wet tyre and 888R for dry tyre, but they claim the R1R is also very good in dry but extreme track abuse in dry shreds them quickly. Can grab a set of these for £320.

Clio owners seem to love both R1R and AD08R, of course those tracking a lot are running the 888R and AR-1 generally.

 

[Gibbo]

Hi there

OK ordered a set of R1R's, £300 for a set so not too bad, see if any good, supposed to be very grippy in wet and dry, but also fun and progressive.


Plus a very quick mod this morning:


Before:

After:

Very effective, very cheap, about £6 but just freshens the car up.

Weather is well this weekend, shall be changing the upper left engine mount for a new one along with Powerflex insert.
If tyres arrive shall probably book the car in for wheel refurbishment and the R1R tyres fitting.

 

[Gibbo]

Hi there


Some more jobs on the Clio today, removed the old upper engine mount and cleaned the area up, great to see no rust or corrosion:

Then fitted up the new engine mount along with Powerflex insert to help limit movement, seems a highly recommended modification on these cars:

I then made decision to remove air box, throttle body etc to give a cleaning, the throttle body was rather dirty (no before pictures) and the air box was rather dusty, plus there was a load of PS fluid/dirt on top of gearbox. So I thoroughly cleaned the throttle body and got some degreaser to work on some parts of engine and the gear box.

All much cleaner, I then went to work with a detailing spray to bring up the plastics and finally the engine bay is looking somewhat fresher now:

So now all the engine/gearbox mounts are done, upper, lower and dogbone. Only the upper has Powerflex insert, as I am only really using Powerflex where it makes sense, end of the day its an original car restoration so trying to keep it original.

The parts left over now to fit is:
- Front wishbones x2
- Inner & outer track rods
- Powerflex anti roll bar bushings
- Powerflex rear beam bushes
- Wheel sorted
- R1R fitted all round


That should have the car spot on the, driving the car today I have to say it felt even more responsive and urgent, no doubt a bit placebo from the upper engine mount and powerflex as now the engine rocks less, visibly than before so that force will be in the cars shell and thus give added response, the throttle body was rather dirty, so maybe a handful horses restored also.

Really enjoying driving the car, but the steering wheel is definitely too big, so I might consider removing and putting into storage and fitting something smaller so I can enjoy the car better.

 

[Gibbo]

Which rear engine mount did you go for?

Used factory mounts for all of them and just Powerflex insert for upper.

 

[Gibbo]

Not thought of a better rear dogbone?

I used eBay item 372062241308 when I had my 172

Thought yes, but decided to keep most of the car as original as possible plus I find oem bushes tend to be better, particular on road cars, more compliance. I don't mind using bushing inserts which compliment the oem bushes.

I am not building a track car, but just restoring a great car to pretty more OEM specification which maybe a couple of minor improvements here and there.
I only have Powerflex ARB bushing kit instead of OEM simply as OEM was out of stock.

Its a fun car, that is really only as fast as your willing to drive it as it can carry serious speed if you happy with the whole tripod and lift of oversteer, but in fairness it is way more forgiving and far better handling than 306GTI-6 and 205GTIs for sure.

 

[Gibbo]

The flowflex is a soft bush mate. I highly recommend it. Especially if you have poly inserts.

The stock dogbone is really weak...

You mean the bushes are weak, as that ebay number is just poly bushes to put into stock dogbone, not a new dogbone.
If I destroy the stock bushes, I shall of course replace with some uprated bush, for now since the fresh the gear change is precise and easy.

 

[Gibbo]

So the Clio made its first trip to work today, along the way I through in a bottle of Redex 5in1 Petrol injector cleaner along with a full tank of Vpower.
Some my say why? Why not? Always found on my older 205's Redex really improved the running of the car, now the Clio has no signs of problems, but as I suspect the previous owner filled it with regular fuel and never did anything more than absolutely necessary, I feel a Redex treatment shall do no harm. I also have regular Redex 2 shots, so once this tank is empty, I shall run a tank of Vpower, then next full temp throw in regular Redex which should clean the injectors up nicely if they do indeed have any fouling on them.

Can I feel any difference? No. As I say car was showing no problems, just doing it more as preventative maintenance.


Grab a few photos as the car is looking so much fresher now after all the work I've done to it:














Also booked it in at local garage to have front wishbones and front inner/outer track rod ends fitted. Yeah the alignment will be screwed though to be honest it already feels pretty screwed up judging by the amount of torque steer I get even in 3rd over undulating surfaces, though I think the larger issue here is the 4 miss matched tyres and the front passenger winter tyre is doing my know favours, so I don't care if these tyres get destroyed.

Once the R1R's are on, it shall have the rest of the bushes replaced that have not been done so far and a full alignment to factory specification.

 

[Gibbo]

"preventative maintenance" my ass, you just saw the shiney thing and went WANT didn't you?


Great little car though, the ultimate in slow-car-fast.

I am kind of hoping the R1R's squeal as much as these budget tyres, they probably won't but it is quite funny that every single roundabout or corner I can make the tyres squeal for mercy, but its a very playful car.

 

[Gibbo]

Tracking ok? Tyres pointing different directions will squeal

I suspect not, why I am doing the entire car as previously owner, literally did nothing. Garage is doing track rods and wishbones today now, they said they will align it.

 

[Gibbo]

Tidy car now, looking forward to seeing it with refurbished wheels.

Should be done in time for meet on 15th.
Though photos don't show up some stuff, its not perfect body wise, some light scratches, something I shall get sorted once it is mechanically perfect.

 

[Gibbo]

Hi there

So these have turned up at work!

In the last picture, is that manufacturer date? So a 2018 tyre?

I am surprised to see they are treadwear 200, I was under impression R1R's were a 140 treadwear, so maybe Toyo made an update, they are incredibly sticky and soft, but the sidewalls are very stiff which I find surprising as Toyo tend to be soft, but there again these are motorsport tyres with re-inforced sidewalls, car will look far better once these are on as they are a better fitment.

 

[Gibbo]

Hi there


OK just got car back from local garage, just like Birchdown Specialist, they commented that its a very clean car indeed, no rust issues and just minor surface corrosion most of which they fixed for me.
They did say the cup wishbones were in relatively good condition which came off and probably would not have bothered changing them, but I want it totally fresh. They did say there was play in the inner rack joint, so good choice to get them swapped over to genuine parts.
They treated the surface corrosion areas with some hammerite black rust paint on the rear beam and front anti-roll bar, they said rest of car was fine.

Only major issue they spotted was a rear tyre with a nail (I knew) and the other rear tyre has two eggs on inner sidewall, plus what looked like some fluid on rear caliper, but they also noted it was a new caliper and the fluid seemed old and did not smell of brake fluid, cleaned that off so can just keep an eye on it.
The brakes will be getting a full refresh anyway, disc, pads, fluid, lines etc. Any further issues can be fixed then.

Grabbed a couple of pictures of the car on the ramp, excuse the dirty under tray, I've degreased and cleaned down the engine bay from when the PS fluid leaked, but never cleaned the tray, my error.

So the rear tyre situation has me a little panicked, as I've been throwing it around somewhat, best play it safe for now and I am now gonna try to find somewhere else to get wheels done, as its pointless fitting the new tyres to knackered wheels and the place I was gonna get the wheels done by can't do them until 2nd week of September, so I need to find somewhere else than can do them, not looking for cheap, just want a good job in original colour and ideally local to myself (Stoke / Congleton), don't particular want to drive any distance due to having to leave car over night, so ideally needs to be within 10 miles maximum.

Oh and the front end, it feels so much tighter, it was kind of vague and wandering over indulations, which I did suspect was the track rods and miss match of tyres, but now it feels much tighter and far more direct, so that is great as of course with 4 matching tyres with firmer sidewalls it will probably become incredibly pointy.

So if your front-end feels vague or not so direct in a Clio, definetely inspect the track rods, the inner had play on mine and it was minor but what a transformation. Maybe the wishbones help too, unknown but it just feels more solid, more direct and better damped on front-end, before it knock a tad over rougher surface, my guess is that was the ball joint worn, of course the new wishbones came pre-fitted with new balljoints as well.

Like I say I do not mess about, the suspension is getting a full refresh to original standards or better, I want to experience the car how Renault meant, so all tight, all fresh. I think now every rubber bush, mount has been replaced, apart from the ones I've yet to do which are:
- Powerflex steering bushes
- Powerflex rear beam bushes
- Powerflex ARB bushes

That is all is left along with a full brake refresh as in such a car confidence in braking is paramount, its pretty good as it is, just too soft on front due to Winter tyre squirming, the tyres will fix that.

 

[Gibbo]

Keep a watch on that brake fluid, you don't want it eating in to freshly refurbished wheels if it is leaking.

/edit - just saw your post on wheel refurbs. Find Powdercoating Shropshire on Facebook. Send a message and say I sent you - also a same day service when booked in.

Yeah shall keep an eye on it, that is the brand new caliper, mechanic said it seemed more like dirt and suggested maybe when fitted something was sprayed on them and dirt has stuck on it as he said it had no smell of brake fluid, cleaned it all up so if it goes wet again, easy to tell there is an issue. Be quite an simply fix if an issue.

Shall look them up, been in touch with retro coatings in Sandbach, but awaiting a response, shall check out Shropshire guys as a one day turn around would be nice.


P.S. Booked in this Friday with Shropshire powder coaters, same day service, can't beat that!