Purchased a small French lightweight hot hatch - Renault Clio 172 Cup & NOW 182 Trophy

[Gibbo]

Hi there


So after discovered I had a rear tyre with 2 eggs in the inner sidewalls, I decided to speed up getting the new tyres on and hence I decided to use another powder coaters as per recommendation by Phil W from Overclockers UK forums. So this morning I arrived at Powder Coating Shropshire, his contact details are:
https://www.facebook.com/powdercoatingshropshire/
Rosehill Industrial Estate (15.02 mi)
Market Drayton TF9 2JU
07426 193224


So I arrived at 7am this morning, the plan been the sooner we start, the sooner we finish as I wanted the sameday turn around and I apologise now because this post shall have many photos.


So here is a photo of the condition of the wheels:

As you can see, they were heavily corroded, curbed and generally just looking pretty terrible, really letting down the car after all the work I have put into it, but of course the wheels were always on the to do list.
So the first step was to get the car up on the ramps and wheels removed:

The wheels were then placed in a container full of chemical, for ease lets just call it acid, essentially these rather nasty chemicals strip the wheels down, after soaking for nearly an hour this is how the wheels came out:

So already quite a major transformation, after this the wheels then go through the following process:

• First dipped in acid bath (special nasty chemicals)
• Then they are sanded to remove any curb rash and other marks, if they are cracked then they can also be welded at this point
• They are then aqua blasted
• They are then baked at 200c to allow any chemicals to sweat out and then allowed to cool down
• They are then primer, baked and allowed to cool again
• They are then painted in your desired colour/finish, baked and allowed to cool
• Final stage is the lacquer which helps repel dust/dirt to make cleaning very easy, baked and cooled, now ready for re-fitting to the car

Here is some photos of these processors and the machines used, your talking serious value in equipment here:

As it was a whilst I wait service, they had permitted me to work on my car, so I set about cleaning the calipers, arches and underside of the car, I then painted the calipers in a stock OEM silver using Hammerite direct to rust smooth silver, been recommended this by other Clio owners and applied it with a brush, was not after a show car level of work, just wanting to give the cleaner look, needless to say this was achieved, here are some before and after photos of arches dirty, arches clean, underside and painted calipers. The guys at the Powdercoaters did comment on how incredibly clean the underside and arches already were, definitely a spotless and rust free shell on this car, not bad for 16 years old.

I also cleaned the underside of the engine thoroughly as well, but as you can see the shell and general condition of the underside of the car is fantastic, very solid indeed. Yes I got the caliper paint all over the pads and disc, but the job was not to be neat, simply because all the disc, pads, lines and fluid are been replaced with new uprated Brembo parts along with EBC Yellow pads and Goodridge lines, this is all been done next week, hence I was not worried about getting the paint on pads or disc.
I am now very pleased with condition of the car, the underside is clean, arches clean, even around the fuel filler there is zero corrosion, likewise for arches. The silver calipers just give the car a much fresher look as I shall now show you with the final photos of the wheels re-fitted to the car, its simply a transformation.









So here is the final result, some photos outside the Powdercoaters:

Here are some slightly higher resolution photos outside both the Powdercoasters and Overclockers UK:

You cannot believe how happy I am with the results, I have to highly recommend Powdercoatings Shropshire for a truly fantastic job and incredible service, especially around turning around same day. Remember due to their process these should last many years and the finish is also exceptional, please remember the condition my wheels were, now several hours later they are transformed.

Next job is the full brake refresh, disc, pads, hoses, fluid. Then just the remaining bushes, so ARB bushes, steering rack bushes and rear beam bushes. Then the car restoration mechanically is done, the next step is a professional paint correction, detail, polish and sealant by the boys at Autobrite.

 

[Gibbo]

What was the price on that if you don't mind me asking? I might look at getting them to do my bike wheels.

Message or call them prices differ depending on what you want, for a starters you only got two wheels, so will be considerable less.

 

[Gibbo]

I’m sure that’s @Phil W dad who owns that refurb place.

Sure is.

 

[Gibbo]

That exhaust looks like a cheap replacement one mate.

Not thought about getting a decent one or a genuine stock one?

It makes no sense, you can't see it and factory exhaust no longer available.
Anything after market is probably noisy.

If there is a stealth exhaust like this, lighter and makes more power, then yes I might consider it, I don't mind such mods as long as they don't really detract from the original car.
For example a remap, high flow cat, panel filter would be fine, because the car still looks original, sounds original, but would just go a bit better.

Any performance mods just need to be sensible, half the fun is the fact its not a 500+ HP monster, even in its current form it gets to 80mph pretty swiftly and happily pulls 100mph.

If there are any recommended exhaust I will consider it for sure, just don't want anything noisy or that can be seen.

 

[Gibbo]

Much much better, nice one.

How are the new tyres?

Well they are round, black and sticky.
I can't really comment much more on them until I have some miles on them, but yes they seem great, not as harsh as I was expecting considering the firm sidewalls and not noisy like R888's always are, grip is higher for sure but need to let them bed in a little before can truly comment on them.

 

[Gibbo]

I'd be careful with a remap, a lot of them smooth out the power curve. Losing that dip at 5k~, which IMO is a trait of the 172/182 and I'd rather have less power than that.

You mean that feeling when it comes on cam?
I notice in main around 5500rpm its a little like VTEC engaging, pulls much harder around 5500rpm and then depending on the mood of the ECU the limiter either kicks at just under 7k or just under 7.5k.


Yes the kick is nice, whilst at the same time there is also nothing wrong with linear power delivery which I guess is what a remap does is give more down low and thus removing the kick or making it less noticeable.

 

[Gibbo]

Yeah exactly that, most (or when I read about) remove it and smooth out the whole power curve.

IIRC the power curve dips slightly before the vvt(?) comes in, which makes it more profound. It depends what you want, but I really like the characteristic of it.

The RS tuners seemed really popular when I owned a 182. Also had a pop and bang setting etc, if memory serves right. Obviously needs a decat.

https://www.fastchip.nl/projects/rstuner

Probably pick one up for pennies on the Clio forums.

If I go remap route, it will be custom with Chris at EFI.
Don't want pops and bangs.

Maybe something that can be done with a custom map is have the improved low down power, but then they just flatten the 5000-5500rpm so when it comes on cam it is still more pronounced.
More power and torque down low is always advantageous simply because that is where you spend so much of the time driving the car.

 

[Gibbo]

The ECU limits the revs until the engine is up to temperature. Limit should be 7250 rpm when warm, if it is higher (around 7500 rpm) its already been remapped.

About 7200-7300rpm is where it seems to kick, it certainly does not go past 7500.

 

[Gibbo]

Hi there


So as I mentioned the next step is a full brake refresh with some uprated components:

So the refresh shall consist of:

• Brembo front XTRA HC disc
• Brembo rear HC disc with integrated bearing
• EBC Yellow front pads
• Pagid rear pads
• ATE DOT4 Racing fluid
• Goodridge lines
• New rear hubnuts
• New rear spacers for disc
• Calipers shall be fully rebuilt and refurbished as well

That shall refresh the brake system to an OEM plus specification.


Had a good drive in the car today, pretty warm sunny day as well at 25c which is of course where the R1R might struggle been more a wet racing tyre, but they performed great, the braking ability is transformed with these tyres. On the ditch finders, hard braking would lock up the wheels and cause skidding (no ABS), whereas now the car stops much better with no skidding, so braking performance on new tyres is vastly improved, be even better with all the above fitted.

Other than that the tyres are certainly more grippy, you can really corner extremely fast, they hint with some understeer towards limits but you can apply more steering and modulate the throttle to re-tighten the line, right on the limit they do squeal a little but of course your going faster. They seem to be also getting better and better with miles.

 

[Gibbo]

Never get pops and bangs. Proven to kill exhaust valves

Would not be surprised, it is something I certainly don't want anyway and I generally find popping and banging sounds terrible on anything less than a 5 pot anyway, just does not suit 4 cylinder engines and its questionable on any engine to be honest, I don't mind it on my SVR as it sounds like thunder and machine gun fire and I can choose to have it do it or not within reason.

So does anyone know what are the good power modifications as in the ones which give a bang for buck increase and are easily reversible?
I was thinking ITG panel filter, spots car and a remap. I see some people change the inlet to an RS one or port them, not sure if my car has an RS inlet stock? Again worth it? 182 manifold, worth it?

 

[Gibbo]

Low boost turbo is the route most take these days, if they want more power. Engine Dynamics do a drive in, drive out service for around £2.5k which gives them 230+bhp and similar figure of torque.

The RS2 inlets have been rumoured to becoming back into production, but at £1k+, and they don't really give decent results without all the supporting mods, mine only produced 185bhp and lost top end torque, it definitely felt fast after i had it removed. Your also still looking at £2k+ minimum for 195bhp and around 175ft/lb of torque.



If you hadn't just had your belts done, i'd have said look into Group N timing and a custom Remap at EFi, this gives very good returns, similar to CatCams with standard inlet and TB.

Definitely don't bother with the RS Tuner, they've not got that great a rep anymore, and the customer service is rubbish. Mapping at either EFi, RS Tuning or Engine Dynamics is your best bet, EFI seems to be the most popular.



Matched Inlets, as the earlier 172 inlets weren't cast well, which is why keep try to get hold of the RS stamped version (normally found on 182's)
182 Exhaust Manifold
Decat/sports Cat - If going 182 manifold you'll need a new cat or and decat anyway. The 182 CAT is already a 200 cell cat, not sure if these can be retro fitted.
Phase 1 or V6 airbox is considered to be better than the later boxed version.
Cat Back exhaust is usually required on these anyway as the originals rust through
And a Remap.

You'll not see big gains, but a back to back drive would definitely see noticeable gains. Other than that Group N timing, then you're looking at ITB with Custom Management or Turbo conversion really. But they don't really need silly power to be fun. You should be able to get it to 185-190 bhp with good torque, and it's fairly easy to get a Cup down to sub 900kg.

Don't really want to strip it to be honest, the plan is to keep it reasonably close to OEM or certainly in appearance to not negatively effect its value.

After putting some thought into it:
182 manifold - £50
RS stamped inlet - £50 (should I get it ported and matched or just give it a damn good cleaning and be done with it?)

Can pick those up from ebay quite cheap, I would then probably go for the pure motorsports 200 cel full exhaust system with silencer and downturned back box to keep oem look, rumoured to save around 10kg, make 5HP and the current exhaust is some cheapo Eurocarparts one fitted when it failed MOT on stock exhaust. So get this to fit upto a 182 manifold, or keep 172 manifold and get the version to fit upto to that. Maybe lighter battery and be down to around 980-990kg. I guess could remove stuff like bonnet insulation, rear wiper but do they really weigh anything, don't want to remove interior or radio.

Drop an ITG in the air box, then I guess go get it mapped at EFI see what it makes.



Tempted to buy this:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Renault-...123936?hash=item4b4c1703e0:g:hCcAAOSwfqFapp7K

£80 seems good price, includes injectors too from a 2006 car.
Can I assume my 172 cup 100% does not have RS inlet?
Are the 172 cup and 2006 182 injectors the same?


P.S. But seems 172 Cup's actually had lower RS inlets? Shall try to take a look tonight.

 

[Gibbo]

172 cups come with matched RS inlets. My 2003 car did and my track car did.

Seems mine did not, had the injector guard off and there is no RS stamp, my car is a 52 plate.
I've looked through numerous build threads and it seems on 52 plate cars RS stamped inlets are hit and miss. 03 and later cars all seem to be RS stamped.

So I guess Renault made the update through the cars life and the earlier cars did not get them.

Found a lower RS inlet with injectors for £40.

 

[Gibbo]

Good find that. There is a guy on the Cliosport forum that does injector cleaning pretty cheap. Might be worth getting them cleaned up as spares for the future. Quite a few people lately seem to be having issues with injectors failing. Guess its due to the age of these things now.

True, I guess 182 and 172 injectors are identical, no change.

Am gonna speak with the specialist, ask if they will fit me the RS lower inlet but at same time port and match it to the head and upper inlet.

 

[Gibbo]

No difference in the injectors as far as i'm aware.

There listed for both 172 and 182 at RPD: https://www.renaultpartsdirect.co.uk/parts/renault-clio-range/injector-clio-172-182/

Think i paid about £140 for a full set from carparts4less on my old 182. But kept the old injectors for spares, always good to have a bunch of spare parts.

Yeah spoke with Specialist, they had lower inlet is a very easy swap and whilst they are at it they shall clean the upper up and also try match the inlets on head and upper to the new lower to maximise flow.
Yep I can put in the injectors in the spares draw.

 

[Gibbo]

Pick car up tomorrow, been in Berlin for weekend.

 

[Gibbo]

Hi there

So collected the car from Birchdown Auto Services at lunch time, it has had following done which pretty much completes the restoration mechanically:

• Front Powerflex Arb bushes
• Powerflex steering rack bushes
• Powerflex rear beam bushes
• New Brembo HC disc
• EBC Yellow front, pagid pads rear
• Uprated brake hoses
• Fluid flush/change
• RS lower inlet fitted, ports matched on block and upper, everything cleaned
• Alignment by Demon Tweeks

Some pictures of the brakes:

The brakes are certainly more powerful with stopping force, the pedal feels very solid with fantastic feel, all round the brakes feel totally fantastic, normally small hatches feel under braked, but the Clio felt quite good stock, but now it feels like its got serious stopping power with great modulation.

The front-end is certainly more direct and pointy, not quite as dramatic as it was after having the inner and outer track rods along with new wishbones fitted, but its definetely that bit more precise again and grip feels further improved.
Can't say I can feel any additional power from the RS inlet, but if my old one was in good condition, then its probably worth 3-4HP at best, so not the kind of thing you will notice, the guys at Birchdown did say they could see a difference, the RS inlet looked better from factory for sure and along with the 182 manifold is probably a big chunk of the 10PS gain the 182 had.

They said it got a lot of attention at Demon Tweeks due to how clean it was underneath and how it was in such good condition. They said it drives absolutely superb, one of the best, but it really should be as the car is now totally fresh, every suspension component and bush updated.

All that now leaves is 182 manifold, good quality manifold back system with sports cat, keeping the stealth look and low noise, then a remap from EFI, job done.

 

[Gibbo]

Hi there


Drove the car in the wet yesterday, its really superb, the R1R's have huge amount of wet grip, as you get close to the limit they do warn you with some mild slip, if you over do it, they break away fast and slide a good few feet before regaining traction, so not the most progressive but very impressive indeed.

The braking performance however on the R1R's is shockingly impressive, even with no ABS you can brake so hard in the wet the stopping power is fantastic and the pedal feel is very impressive as you can brake right upto the point of slip pretty much and modulate as required, but the way it can shed speed is very impressive indeed, at super high speeds, three digits, then things can get a little squirmy but its not really the kind of car you should be trying to stop fast from triple digits, but it can do so very well, but at around legal speeds it can stop insanely well.

The brakes ability, performance and feel is fantastic, probably the best out of all my car and only beaten by the M3 and Jaguar really at trying to stop from speeds beyond 130mph, which in fairness the Clio would struggle to exceed 130mph anyway.

It is such a fun little car, I can't recommend it enough when it comes as a point of fun factor, a BMW 640D in the wet was driving so hard on a country lane in the wet, yet for me in the Clio I felt like I did not even need to try, for me it was just a breeze to keep up and even when joining a dual carriage-way I was on the power so much earlier that even after a good 1/4 mile run he was one car length ahead, its ability to corner, put power down is very impressive, can certainly shock other cars, that is a low kerb weight and sticky tyres for you. Plus its a lot more fun!

Yes its no super car killer, doing some back to back runs between it and the Jaguar and the SVR can corner everywhere faster, even in wet, it is quite mind boggling in fact how quick the SVR can corner if you really push, at first it feels like it will let go as it feels so alive, but you just push beyond it and the SVR can have astonishing pace, but do have to be careful in wet due to its extra mass and power. Likewise with the M3 there is some corners where the Clio may rival it, but long sweepers the M3 does have an edge, but in all fairness shows how capable the Clio is to not be far off the M3, infact on a tighter circuit I can see the Clio been as quick, yes a more flowing circuit the M3 will be gone. Though of course the M3 is running on a less sticky tyre.

Still such a fun car, it is mechanically perfect now, all that is left is 182 manifold, sports cat/exhaust (stealth) and EFI map, then just enjoy it and don't put too many miles on it. Should all be done next month, then over Winter the M3 can get a few jobs I want to do on it along with a set of new wheels and some sticky AR1 for Summer and track days. Probably gonna get a nice set of Recaro F1 seats for the M3 as well.

 

[Gibbo]

Steering rack bush change, noticeable and if so how? Main benefits?

Well I had steering rack bush, ARB bushes and rear beam bushes at same time, but the car just felt that little bit more direct and pointy if makes sense.

My car now has every suspension bush, steering component and suspension part replaced for new original or powerflex, including engine mounts and gearbox mounts.
In short I wanted to experience how the car drives like it did when was brand new, I am very happy with it, lot of fun and very capable.

I remember Harry Metcalfe did a review of his Clio Trophy on his channel and they did a group test around the Alps with some super cars and the Lambo just couldn't get away. There and then he rang up Renault and purchased the test car.

These and the RS200 are most likely the last of a breed that we will never see again. In twenty odd years they will be a feature of some motoring program and worth 5 figures.

Yes I was eyeing up the Trophy, but some people rate it no better than Cup or even not as good, due to weight, I suspect they are both very equal but of course you can get into a cup for 1-2k and then 2-4k on restoring, but a Trophy is 6-9k to get into and still a few grand to bring it back like new, but as far as looks go I do prefer the Trophy, the red is stunning and of course less of them, only 500 so will hold value a bit better. I think Renault sold around 2-2.5k blue cups, around 700 on the road now so they are getting rarer with time.

Not so sure about RS200, I did consider the RS197 and RS200 but when I see the weight of 1240kg I was really put off, yes the RS200 has better handling due to improved suspension technology, but its over 200kg heavier and my M3 is around 1330kg, so it made little sense to me, I wanted as light as I could go and my only lighter option was really something like a 106GTi at 950kg, but they were all nasty for the money.

For me 172 Cup or a 182 Cup at the moment represent fantastic value and huge smiles per mile if your the kind of driver who really like to drive their cars hard, but want to experience the driving hard side more because you need to work harder for it, then these Clio's are a great choice.

 

[Gibbo]

Hi there

No real updates to the car but today it hit 56,000 miles:

I've been using the car every day for the past week or so, it is such an enjoyable thing to drive, though this morning with if slightly frosted up you soon realise the annoyance of no AC, it took ages to defrost, though a small complaint.



Some photos from the recent OcUK meet, not taken by myself of course:

Here is my alignment settings, not requested by me, I just requested factory settings:

So a few questions to resident experts, I am surprised by such little caster, yes I replaced the wishbones to the new latest ones, which supposedly have the same additional caster like Cups ones did, upon visual inspection the new ones compared to original cup ones do look the same.

So my guess is because the car is running minimal front negative camber is why caster is also a little low and I guess increasing front negative camber would also increase the caster?


The car drives fine, infact it is huge fun, yes it does under steer at the limit, but not to the point its annoying, it is very manageable, even fun and more steering lock will see it turn in. The rear is absolutely planted, that is going nowhere!
So I suspect if I did add more front negative camber, to an extent it would dial out some of the understeer? If true what is a good negative camber value to aim for on the front for fast road use? Do I need camber bolts to adjust front camber or is there adjustment from factory?

 

[Gibbo]

Yeah I 100% think I need camber bolts, just checking really, shall grab a set, then just need to know whats a good fast road alignment to put on it, guessing rear is spot on, so just a case of trying to add more front caster and negative camber.