Rachel Riley - political commentator.

StriderX said:
High welfare is socialist, by definition, it doesn’t mean you’ll immediately slip into a Leninist coma.

High economic freedom controlled with regulations and a minimum standard of living is something we should defend.
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Indeed,

He seems to be conflating either intentionally or accidentally the following.

Communism
Socialism
Social democracy
Social democrats
Libertarian socialism

Finally, somebody being a self-declared Marxist doesn't give you an indication as to what they actually advocate, only that they agree with the criticisms Marx laid on on capitalism.
 
dowie said:
AFAIK, as odious an individual as he is, Nick Griffin isn't a Nazi either.

I guess they both embrace elements of socialism, sure Griffin's socialism is seemingly influenced by the Nazi's "national socialism" rather than the international socialism Corbyn seems to be inspired by though ironically he seems (or seemed, as the BNP doesn't seem to be a party anymore) to be more concerned about stopping antisemitism within his party than Corbyn is within Labour. Corbyn has his own little militant group that seek to remove internal enemies from the party and abuse/intimidate opponents, sure they don't wear uniforms but that is illegal these days anyway.

If SJWs can throw around the Nazi label then why not a Jewish Celebrity, campaigning against antisemitism, who has been target of abuse by Corbyn's Sturmabteilung momentum
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I don't think he is a Nazi either, neither do I support the egging of him.

I think being the head of the BNP it's fair shot to say he's likely racist or at least bigoted, but a full on Nazi is indeed hyperbolic. My point is more that Riley was adding to the throwing of the anti-Semite label & adding to the ridiculous political discourse we have. The fact is she did insinuate that JC was a racist in her tweet & if she has issues with the idiotic Owen Jones she should keep it at him.

On the whole, it does illustrate well why I can't stand Owen Jones (or celebrities getting involved in political issues in general), that I think we can all agree on (both sides of the political spectrum).
 
elmarko said:
I don't really agree with Owen Jones on egging anybody tbh, it can still classify as assault. My issue is with the intentional misframing of criticism of a state as the same as bigotry against Jewish people.
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What does that have to do with the thread?

If by friends you're referring to dubious people he's spoken to & a form of guilt by association I assume you also hold Thatcher as a villain (Pinochet, Saville) & the Queen is as low regard for rubbing shoulders with dictators & murderers over the last 50 years like every single other leader has/does.
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Rather different for the Queen to meet say a head of state from say Saudi Arabia or China etc.. while acting as head of state and Corbyn to invite IRA terrorists to Westminster, while a back bencher or to go to terrorist graves in North Africa for a ceremony or to refer to groups like Hamas and Hezbollah as his "friends" etc...

His "friends" in Hamas are basically neo-nazis but because they're brown and fighting Israel that seemingly doesn't matter. What he did is equivalent to say Nigel Farage referring to his friends in the KKK and the aryan brotherhood... there would be an absolute **** storm if someone to the right of centre were to do the similar re: extremist groups like that and rightly so, whereas it just gets brushed over by apologists or labeled smears when elements of the press highlight it re: Corbyn.
 
elmarko said:
I don't think he is a Nazi either, neither do I support the egging of him.

I think being the head of the BNP it's fair shot to say he's likely racist or at least bigoted, but a full on Nazi is indeed hyperbolic. My point is more that Riley was adding to the throwing of the anti-Semite label & adding to the ridiculous political discourse we have. The fact is she did insinuate that JC was a racist in her tweet & if she has issues with the idiotic Owen Jones she should keep it at him.
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It seems like Corbyn is pretty bigoted too though, he certainly has a blindspot re: antisemitism and is fine to call various hate groups his friends and indeed attend rallies organised by hate groups etc...

Only because Nick Griffin's party has some white skinhead supporters whereas Corbyn's issue stems from brown muslim supporters then it gets perceived differently.
 
Is the issue that need for black & white thinking here?.

One can support say the Northern Island peace process, without supporting the bombing of the UK.
One can also support the displacement of the people or Palestine without supporting the missile attacks & how they treat homosexuals.
One can advocate a world view which fights against bigotry against Jewish people without giving 100% support to the actions of the state of Israel.

What does it have to do with the thread? - everything, RR is clearing implying that Corbyn is a racist (who was recently hit by somebody holding an egg) - further pushing the erroneous view that criticizing Israel = hating Jewish people.
 
elmarko said:
One can support say the Northern Island peace process, without supporting the bombing of the UK.
One can also support the displacement of the people or Palestine without supporting the missile attacks & how they treat homosexuals.
One can advocate a world view which fights against bigotry against Jewish people without giving 100% support to the actions of the state of Israel.

What does it have to do with the thread? - everything, RR is clearing implying that Corbyn is a racist (who was recently hit by somebody holding an egg) - further pushing the erroneous view that criticizing Israel = hating Jewish people.
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The complaints about Corbyn aren't that he supports the Palestinians or the NI peace process. Nor is anyone expecting that he needs to 100% support the actions of the state of Israel.
 
StriderX said:
High welfare is socialist, by definition,
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No it isn't. By definition.

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High taxes are not inherently socialist. Socialism is state ownership (or effective ownership) of industry.

The Scandinavian economies are Social Democracies. Not the same thing. Do you also suppose that Yorkshire Pudding and Yorkshire Terriers are the same thing? Or Nuclear Power and Nuclear Weapons?
 
h4rm0ny said:
No it isn't. By definition.

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High taxes are not inherently socialist. Socialism is state ownership (or effective ownership) of industry.

The Scandinavian economies are Social Democracies. Not the same thing. Do you also suppose that Yorkshire Pudding and Yorkshire Terriers are the same thing? Or Nuclear Power and Nuclear Weapons?
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Welfare is a product that the state has a monopoly on.

And certainly welfare is a distribution by proxy of goods.
 
elmarko said:
The fact is she did insinuate that JC was a racist in her tweet & if she has issues with the idiotic Owen Jones she should keep it at him.
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I think people are focussing too much on the Nazi part, unless there's a tweet I missd it looks like she was just pointing out the hypocrisy of the left. They celebrate/justify violence against people on the right but condemn it and slander their political opponents when the shoe is on the other foot.

Then again, the way the left justifies violence against people on the right by believing that those people are evil hate filled Nazi's who need to be pre-emptively destroyed before they can take over, is reminiscent of the way Jews were dehumanised and attacked in Nazi Germany. Even in the mainstream media you've got EU heads like Guy Verhofstadt saying that 'populists' and 'populism' (basically the democratic will of the poeple) will mean the destruction of Europe, the EU yes but certainly not Europe but when leftists hear him it's more or less a battle cry/call to arms.
 
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mmj_uk said:
I think people are focussing too much on the Nazi part, unless there's a tweet I missd it looks like she was just pointing out the hypocrisy of the left. They celebrate/justify violence against people on the right but condemn it and slander their political opponents when the shoe is on the other foot.

Then again, the way the left justifies violence against people on the right by believing that those people are evil hate filled Nazi's who need to be pre-emptively destroyed before they can take over, is reminiscent of the way Jews were dehumanised and attacked in Nazi Germany. Even in the mainstream media you've got EU heads like Guy Verhofstadt saying that 'populists' and 'populism' (basically the democratic will of the poeple) will mean the destruction of Europe, the EU yes but certainly not Europe but when leftists hear him it's more or less a battle cry/call to arms.
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The last time populists got control of anything it did mean the destruction of Europe...

Oops? It’s certainly currently destroying the US and the UK.
 
StriderX said:
Welfare is a product that the state has a monopoly on.

And certainly welfare is a distribution by proxy of goods.
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I'm not sure welfare is a product as such tho...

The government controls welfare spending, but the providers of that "care" are now largely private.

And other forms of benefits are just in the form of money to spend on goods very much created by the private sector.
 
elmarko said:
What does it have to do with the thread? - everything, RR is clearing implying that Corbyn is a racist (who was recently hit by somebody holding an egg) - further pushing the erroneous view that criticizing Israel = hating Jewish people.
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I didn't read it as such, I read it as Rachel Riley making fun of Owen Jones using his own remarks against him.
 
elmarko said:
Indeed,

He seems to be conflating either intentionally or accidentally the following.

Communism
Socialism
Social democracy
Social democrats
Libertarian socialism
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It’s not even that. In his view, Socialism is bad; therefore anything bad must, by definition, be Socialist. He’s obsessed.

I’m pretty sure he could find a way of attributing Pinochet to Socialism given half a chance.
 
dowie said:
It seems like Corbyn is pretty bigoted too though, he certainly has a blindspot re: antisemitism and is fine to call various hate groups his friends and indeed attend rallies organised by hate groups etc...

Only because Nick Griffin's party has some white skinhead supporters whereas Corbyn's issue stems from brown muslim supporters then it gets perceived differently.
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To be fair Griffin is seemingly a bit of a fan of the SS and has a habit of denying the holocaust occurred, that's before we touch on immigration, muslims, multiculturalism, and homosexuality. I'm not sure the levels of bigotry here are comparable.
 
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