RAF recruitment, has it gone a bit too far...

[NooBish AbbZ]

Anyone else read the powerpoint slides from the recent Engineering WO's group meet regarding workforce retention - BIG OOF!!!!

The numbers of supervisors that are quitting/leaving in the techie trades is absolutely shocking, and the fixes look to be are far too little too late with the usual "these things take time and money to sort" excuses being given by those who allowed it to end up so bad in the first place. If the next government cuts military spending I'll be genuinely worried about the future of the RAF, because whilst its lovely to have nice shiny new things 10 years from now, by then there'll be no-one left to fly/fix them looking at the numbers being presented.

I've not been in the Eng one, but it sounds similar in Air Traffic. Huge amount of people leaving, not many joining. Because there's not many joining the aptitude test requirements re reduced, so the numbers increase slightly, but then they can't get through the training or scrape through training and then can't endorse at any sort of busy unit (ie, Coningsby) Meanwhile apparently we've been red for years regarding retention and there has been rumours regarding retention bonus'. I think there's a little more weight to those rumours at the minute but, I'm sure it'll still never happen.
At least I wasn't working 2 desks down from a civvy at my previous posting s9starting on) £90k a year for the same job.... Hold on.. that's exactly what I was doing.

Anyway, early stages of looking into transferring to Aussie Air Force in a few years. Their pension (Superannuation) out there sounds absolutely mental from a mate who I deployed with (Aussie and has shown me his screenshots) He's talking a £900k payout at 62(retirement) and a £55k annual pension continuously until death. He's a Cpl

 

[ivrytwr3]

Anyway, early stages of looking into transferring to Aussie Air Force in a few years. Their pension (Superannuation) out there sounds absolutely mental from a mate who I deployed with (Aussie and has shown me his screenshots) He's talking a £900k payout at 62(retirement) and a £55k annual pension continuously until death. He's a Cpl

Mmmmm, are you sure? Those figures seem a little high!

https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/how-much-age-pension-you-can-get?context=22526

But yes, worked with Aussies a few times. Deployments are few and far between and loads of volunteers as they don't pay tax when deployed, the married quarters I have seen have private pools, but not sure about those pension figures.

 

[ivrytwr3]

Ah, just seen that 55k Australian is £29k gbp - so maybe he was showing in Australian currency?

 

[ianh]

Whilst I've only worked with a handful of RAAF engineers (serving and ex) back in '05 to '10 (operational RAAF) and then in '17-'21 (ex-RAAF), they all seemed very switched on with great banter but at those times they were also very, very regimented in their maintenance towards "everything must be done following a procedure" with very limited flexibility for lateral thinking when the procedure couldn't fix a problem so they stopped work on that issue until an updated procedure could be written by the manufacturers. Thats great in peacetime and should the way everyone does aviation work, but on Ops it was very obvious that this "it must be written down before we can do it" doctrine didn't blend well the realities on the ground where time taken to do something genuinely meant lives at risk.

I've had a handful of mates leave the RAF and start over again in Aus as civvies (all aircraft techies) and everyone of them publicly seems to love the life out there with none coming back in the 10-15 years since they left.

I remember that around 2005-ish the NZRAF came around sniffing for aircrew/groundcrew to transfer from RAF Helicopters (and specifically Merlin Mk3/3A) when they traded their old UH-1 Huey helicopters to the "baby Merlin" NH90 as the step up in tech was obviously a vast leap for them. Whilst it initially sounded really good at the briefing with lots of "look at wonderful NZ, look at the scenery" etc, once you scratched the surface and started loom at wages, cost of living, house prices, pension, promotion prospects, schools system, location of bases etc it rapidly became clear to everyone that it wasn't as good as initially made out to be and, when the briefer came around 2 weeks later to see how many would be interested (I'm guessing he thought 10-20 maybe from each trade across all RAF Helicopters based on the interest in his 1st brief), he seemed very shocked when no-one, in the whole RAF, wanted to transfer, not even any pilots. I've no idea how well the Army/Navy briefs went but I'd be surprised if they got more than a handful to move.

 

[NooBish AbbZ]

Ah, just seen that 55k Australian is £29k gbp - so maybe he was showing in Australian currency?

He was showing in Australian currency but I've converted it. His screenshot states this as an option

"Part Pension, Part lump sum
By choosing this option, you are claiming your final benefit by electing to convert a portion of your defined benefit to pension, with the remaining amount paid as lump sum. Your pension element will be funded by your untaxed element in the first instance. Please note you must be permanently retired from the workforce to claim this option

Pension amount (gross pa)
$114,693.54

Lump Sum Amount (Gross)
$1,865,310.87. "





In GBP:
Pension - £60542.02
Lump sum - £984621.13




None of these numbers are typos. I agree it sounds ******* nuts. He's obviously 10 years in at this point and it's if he continues to contribute at the rate he already does (not sure on this rate but it isn't anything crazy, as I say he's a Corporal) until he hits retirement age at 62. Drives a 5.0L Mustang, too(meh, couldn't we all in 20's in the forces, I had the 340i, too ). While we were deployed he was being paid about the same as us as an assistant(due to paying no tax) while we were controllers.

@ianh I was talking to someone in my cycling club as he spent 3 years in NZ; doesn't really appeal to me. Looks stunning but way too quiet from what I've read and heard in my research. I have a mate who went through training at the same time as me who is at the end of the process; I'm aware there are a couple postings that aren't too close to cities (ie, Northern Territory being 5 hours from nearest city (I think Darwin) but I'm still massively interested in the whole thing. I appreciate the comment saying anyone who has moved to Aus has stayed there. If I went for it I'd be surrendering my pension here (doesn't transfer) so it's very much a if you go, you go and stay (apply for permanent citizenship which is a requirement) etc.

 

[Penfold101]

He was showing in Australian currency but I've converted it. His screenshot states this as an option

"Part Pension, Part lump sum
By choosing this option, you are claiming your final benefit by electing to convert a portion of your defined benefit to pension, with the remaining amount paid as lump sum. Your pension element will be funded by your untaxed element in the first instance. Please note you must be permanently retired from the workforce to claim this option

Pension amount (gross pa)
$114,693.54

Lump Sum Amount (Gross)
$1,865,310.87. "





In GBP:
Pension - £60542.02
Lump sum - £984621.13




None of these numbers are typos. I agree it sounds ******* nuts. He's obviously 10 years in at this point and it's if he continues to contribute at the rate he already does (not sure on this rate but it isn't anything crazy, as I say he's a Corporal) until he hits retirement age at 62. Drives a 5.0L Mustang, too(meh, couldn't we all in 20's in the forces, I had the 340i, too ). While we were deployed he was being paid about the same as us as an assistant(due to paying no tax) while we were controllers.

@ianh I was talking to someone in my cycling club as he spent 3 years in NZ; doesn't really appeal to me. Looks stunning but way too quiet from what I've read and heard in my research. I have a mate who went through training at the same time as me who is at the end of the process; I'm aware there are a couple postings that aren't too close to cities (ie, Northern Territory being 5 hours from nearest city (I think Darwin) but I'm still massively interested in the whole thing. I appreciate the comment saying anyone who has moved to Aus has stayed there. If I went for it I'd be surrendering my pension here (doesn't transfer) so it's very much a if you go, you go and stay (apply for permanent citizenship which is a requirement) etc.

Let me just check my numbers after 25 years leaving as a Cpl…

Pension: 13k
Lump sum: 54k if commuted.

I mean, better than a kick in the teeth…

 

[NooBish AbbZ]

Let me just check my numbers after 25 years leaving as a Cpl…

Pension: 13k
Lump sum: 54k if commuted.

I mean, better than a kick in the teeth…

If I left in 11 years (doing 20 years total) without any further promotion, £79k commuted and £12k pension

 

[ivrytwr3]

He was showing in Australian currency but I've converted it. His screenshot states this as an option

"Part Pension, Part lump sum
By choosing this option, you are claiming your final benefit by electing to convert a portion of your defined benefit to pension, with the remaining amount paid as lump sum. Your pension element will be funded by your untaxed element in the first instance. Please note you must be permanently retired from the workforce to claim this option

Pension amount (gross pa)
$114,693.54

Lump Sum Amount (Gross)
$1,865,310.87. "





In GBP:
Pension - £60542.02
Lump sum - £984621.13




None of these numbers are typos. I agree it sounds ******* nuts. He's obviously 10 years in at this point and it's if he continues to contribute at the rate he already does (not sure on this rate but it isn't anything crazy, as I say he's a Corporal) until he hits retirement age at 62. Drives a 5.0L Mustang, too(meh, couldn't we all in 20's in the forces, I had the 340i, too ). While we were deployed he was being paid about the same as us as an assistant(due to paying no tax) while we were controllers.

@ianh I was talking to someone in my cycling club as he spent 3 years in NZ; doesn't really appeal to me. Looks stunning but way too quiet from what I've read and heard in my research. I have a mate who went through training at the same time as me who is at the end of the process; I'm aware there are a couple postings that aren't too close to cities (ie, Northern Territory being 5 hours from nearest city (I think Darwin) but I'm still massively interested in the whole thing. I appreciate the comment saying anyone who has moved to Aus has stayed there. If I went for it I'd be surrendering my pension here (doesn't transfer) so it's very much a if you go, you go and stay (apply for permanent citizenship which is a requirement) etc.

I used this calculator: https://militarypay.defense.gov/Calculators/BRS/ and came out with the following figures for a Cpl doing a full career:



It's a crap calculator compared to ours, but i think it says that:

Max lump sum - £63k GBP
Annual pension - £13k GBP

If you were to live to 85, the total cost of your pension would be $1,609,066 or £849,395.47 GBP. Has your mate got mixed up with the total pot and thinks this is the lump sum payment?

I think the figures your mate has are being interpreted incorrectly, please get proper financial advice if you are basing a move thinking that is what the pension payments could be. A million quid lump sum and £60k per year pension for a Cpl in the Oz military? The country would go bankrupt! I know the OZ aren't as well paid as UK Forces, so to see the extremely high pension figures is surprising, happy to proven wrong though.

 

[NooBish AbbZ]

I used this calculator: https://militarypay.defense.gov/Calculators/BRS/ and came out with the following figures for a Cpl doing a full career:



It's a crap calculator compared to ours, but i think it says that:

Max lump sum - £63k GBP
Annual pension - £13k GBP

If you were to live to 85, the total cost of your pension would be $1,609,066 or £849,395.47 GBP. Has your mate got mixed up with the total pot and thinks this is the lump sum payment?

I think the figures your mate has are being interpreted incorrectly, please get proper financial advice if you are basing a move thinking that is what the pension payments could be. A million quid lump sum and £60k per year pension for a Cpl in the Oz military? The country would go bankrupt! I know the OZ aren't as well paid as UK Forces, so to see the extremely high pension figures is surprising, happy to proven wrong though.

Yeah, looking into way more stuff; It's only an early though at the moment for maybe 2-3 years in the future. Maybe I understood him incorrectly, too!

 

[ivrytwr3]

I've asked on a Mil forum to see if someone else can help out with your mates forecast - **** if it's right, i might look at transferring myself!

For me, UK Mil, 33yrs:

Pension/EDP at Exit £20k
Lump Sum at Exit £70k
Deferred Pension at SPA £26k

 

[ivrytwr3]

From a mate in the ADF - sorry for the length!!!!

Those figures do seem a bit far fetched.

Firstly I need to know his age.

About thirty years ago the ADF changed they way paid people out on retirement or discharge from the services. This was in line with changes to the taxation system and the introduction of Superannuation which in effect was about who paid for an individual's retirement. The Pension, or more accurately DFR&DB which was the military pension received after twenty years full time service was being scrapped.

Superannuation very briefly is the employee's self funded retirement fund for which it is mandatory for every employer to pay a minimum fixed amount (by law) into the fund of your choice. Most companies have a preferred fund however you can opt to choose your own. The ADF fund (Military Super) which most personnel elect to use had a period where its returns were quite low when compared to other performing funds. When it was introduced ADF members had the choice of of staying in DFR&DB or rolling over the above funds into Superannuation.

Now no one really knew how good Superannuation would be and the kicker for most ADF members was that if you remained in DFR&DB you were still entitled to a combination of a pension and lump sump if you retired after twenty years of service. There was a sliding scale depending on rank and years of service. I think there may have even been a housing loan associated with this system.

However, if you elected to roll your funds into Super then you no longer had the option to retire and receive a pension after twenty years of service. Also if you joined up after the the cut off date then you went straight to Super which is how things are today. It effectively means you can no longer join up, do twenty and then rejoin the workforce and continue in another career. This had a huge effect on the future ADF along with other changes which meant that if you wanted a career in defence, then you had to stay for the long haul until retirement age which is now sixty. There was a sliding scale of legally retiring between 55 and 60 for certain birth years which meant you could access your Super at the same time. Otherwise you cannot access Super until 60 years of age. There were hardship provisions during Covid which allowed limited access.

Now depending on old mates age, if he was still in DFR&DB then he would have to be early fifties if still in the ADF. Once he leaves he has to cash it out. If he took the Super option, then those figures although are possible but I still call ******** for a Cpl. Although a Tech Corporal in the ADF would be chasing $100,000 per year nowadays.

If you haven't fallen asleep yet, you will soon.

As the years have shown Super has largely remained intact and every time the government attempts to change Super they are dealing with a political hot potato with significant voter backlash. There are different funds and some of the original funds were very generous as some of my older friends have shown. A group of them after working for the same employer have an annual retirement income in excess of $100,000 which is also tax free. The Federal government is always trying to scim off anything it can from this big bucket of money just sitting there.

The intervening years have resulted in funds that have been watered down and the generosity of earlier schemes reduced. It all depends on how much Super you have on retirement and that is your income once you start using it as retirement income. Legally you have to take between 4 and 10% annually once you start accessing it and once started you cannot put it on hold. I'm currently taking 7% of mine as retirement income. A number of years before retirement I took advice from a Super Specialist and worked out a plan and a date which I largely followed. More importantly I increased my personal contributions to ensure that I had an adequate retirement income. Old mate must be doing the same if he wants to retire on those figures.

As current mandatory rates paid by the employer are somewhere between 12 & 15%, there is a current Super contribution threshold of $27,500 which is a combination of employer and personal contributions before tax is payable on those contributions. For the average worker, those percentages are roughly half the threshold. Prior to retirement I was paying more than the threshold and consequently paid more tax, to put myself where I wanted to be. Old mate must be doing something similar. I really call ****** on the 1,8 million figure unless of course he is paying significantly more than I paid. If that is the case he must be a dull and boring **** with no life. Similar to someone who writes something like this.

The system is a lot more complex than this and some funds are better than others. Once you reach 75 years of age you can no longer contribute. There is also no legal requirement to access your funds if you retire. A couple of mates of mine don't access theirs because their wives ares still working. The reality is that they don't have a lot and one of the pitfalls of a divorce is that a spouse can legally request part of your Super as part of the settlement.

There are a lot of people of a similar age to myself who have not set themselves up for retirement through Super for various reasons. The pension age has recently increased from 65 to 67 and there are a lot of people who will work to this age. There are provisions if you exhaust your Super and wish to access the pension. The main thing in Oz on retirement is to have your house paid off along with everything else.

I really must be a dull **** to sit down and write all this.

 

[Begbie]

Anyone else read the powerpoint slides from the recent Engineering WO's group meet regarding workforce retention - BIG OOF!!!!

The numbers of supervisors that are quitting/leaving in the techie trades is absolutely shocking, and the fixes look to be are far too little too late with the usual "these things take time and money to sort" excuses being given by those who allowed it to end up so bad in the first place. If the next government cuts military spending I'll be genuinely worried about the future of the RAF, because whilst its lovely to have nice shiny new things 10 years from now, by then there'll be no-one left to fly/fix them looking at the numbers being presented.

What was it? Everyone leaving?

Left a 'techie' trade last week, or what used to be a techie trade. No one asked why, how they could retain me etc etc. so it's no wonder they can't retain if they can't even figure out why people are leaving.

I agree, they'll be doing so many fixes and so many many joining of trades, with hidden pay cuts that the place will crumble. Such a shame.

 

[Penfold101]

From a mate in the ADF - sorry for the length!!!!

I said the same thing last night…

 

[ivrytwr3]

I said the same thing last night…

To your mate in the ADF? Kinky

 

[Penfold101]

To your mate in the ADF? Kinky

It’s a long distance thing - I have to apologise every time I turn the camera on…

 

[Hedge]

What was it? Everyone leaving?

Left a 'techie' trade last week, or what used to be a techie trade. No one asked why, how they could retain me etc etc. so it's no wonder they can't retain if they can't even figure out why people are leaving.

I agree, they'll be doing so many fixes and so many many joining of trades, with hidden pay cuts that the place will crumble. Such a shame.

It's funny how much of an anticlimax leaving is. The admin required is minimal compared to arrivals and literally no one seems to care you're leaving (cept your close colleagues).

They complain about retention but get annoyed when you try to give them their kit back lol.

 

[plasmahal]

Is there anyone here who left under the redundancies in 2007?

 

[the_worrier]

The Med services are the same. Nowhere near enough people.

 

[hornetstinger]

Capita do the recruitment for the armed forces not the RAF directly so I'm calling BS.

why would anyone sub contract to military,...dumb

 

[Josh]

why would anyone sub contract to military,...dumb

Excellent 18 month post bump.

MOD sub contracts loads, needlessly in a lot of cases.