Receiving calls from customers.

[Helium_Junkie]

Edit: Must not argue with Fox!
*tries very hard not to feed the troll* ><

 

[Cosimo]

Skilled labour = master craftsman. Not the guy who fixes your washing machine, replaces the oil filter on your car or puts a new hard drive in your PC.

How very true.

 

[Brian Stuart]

Read this thread with interest as I run a computer repair/build company from home.
Lets be clear about the distinction between running a profitable business to provide an income and "doing a favour for a mate".
I get lots of referrals by word of mouth and returning customers and my rates are comparable to Admiral Huddy's. The question of skilled versus unskilled is academic as some people are afraid of technology and are willing to pay for a good, reputable company to do the simple jobs that themselves either cannot or will not do.
TBH if i were relying on my PC business as a sole form of income then I would charge what the market would bear.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Edit: Must not argue with Fox!
*tries very hard not to feed the troll* ><

Given input like this to what is otherwise a healthy and reasonably intelligent debate I'd rather suggest its you who is the troll. I mean what else was the purpose of your post if not to cause arguments?

 

[DampCat]

I wouldn't have thought £35/hr round here was too bad. Most computer-illiterate people i know in this area get the purple shirts to do it, isn't their rate £50/hr?

How far out do you go? Area's like Braintree i'm pretty sure there's no one up there doing this stuff. There wasn't when i was working from Maldon anyway, i was in braintree every other day (oh, and that was £50/hr. Not that i saw any of it).

 

[Helium_Junkie]

Given input like this to what is otherwise a healthy and reasonably intelligent debate I'd rather suggest its you who is the troll. I mean what else was the purpose of your post if not to cause arguments?

I typed out a response to your debate, but then remembered myself and scrapped it. I want to discuss this issue, but history shows that it will only turn into your usual torrent of personal attacks and abuse when people don't instantly fall into your way of thinking. Ergo, I removed my comments, and rather than leave a single "." decided to place a descriptive reason for my removal.

And voila, I have fallen into you trap regardless.

So I may as well join this 'debate' about skilled vs unskilled labour.
I don't think you're looking at this the right way. You're comparing a job that requires knowledge to a job that requires a craft skill. You can't compare a sculptor to a lawyer, you can't compare an IT technician to a plumber. It may not fit into your idea of skilled labour, but neither would a lawyer or scientist - should they also be payed £10/hour?

 

[[TW]Fox]

but history shows that it will only turn into your usual torrent of personal attacks and abuse when people don't instantly fall into your way of thinking.

I'm not exactly famed for being rude and abusive. Short, to the point and tactless, yes. But I don't post torrents of personal abuse. Whereas you've... just assassinated my character becuase you disagree with my views on a topic

So I may as well join this 'debate' about skilled vs unskilled labour.
I don't think you're looking at this the right way. You're comparing a job that requires knowledge to a job that requires a craft skill. You can't compare a sculptor to a lawyer, you can't compare an IT technician to a plumber. It may not fit into your idea of skilled labour, but neither would a lawyer or scientist - should they also be payed £10/hour?

The point is that both a lawyer and a scientist requires many years of expensive professional training, whereas fixing computers requires a phillips screwdriver, a USB memory stick and some common sense. Surely you can't compare fixing computers to either of those two trades? You must be able to see the difference?

 

[Brian Stuart]

The unskilled versus skilled debate is pretty pointless. If I can't do something then the person that can is skilled in that particular job. It is a false concept that just enables such things as group closure, artificially raised remuneration and a false sense of worth.

 

[Helium_Junkie]

The point is that both a lawyer and a scientist requires many years of expensive professional training, whereas fixing computers requires a phillips screwdriver, a USB memory stick and some common sense. Surely you can't compare fixing computers to either of those two trades? You must be able to see the difference?

"many years of expensive professional training"... or experience and brainpower. You can't class somebody's ability based on how much was spent on their training. A person could spend thousands on tuition, whereas someone else could develop that same knowledge through experience, and likely be the more useful candidate for a job.

My dad has common sense, screwdrivers and memory sticks. He still calls me when his PC goes wrong. Your argument is from the perspective of someone who already possesses such skill (through experience) and therefore will not give that skill any real value. You need to try and see it from the perspective of someone lacking such a skill. Sure, they could learn to have the skill, but so could they learn to be a plumber, a sculptor, architect, craftsman...

It is the knowledge that person possesses that makes them valuable, and therefore able to charge for their service. Charging the same rate as a "skilled labourer" in my opinion is acceptable. Even if you don't want to admit IT techy to the Skilled Labourer classification.

 

[Knubje]

I was going to make a similar point. There may not be much knowledge or skill involved in installing a hard drive or upgrading Windows, but being able to effectively troubleshoot some of the more obscure hardware or software problems is something which only really comes with experience. If I were paying for someone to fix a non-trivial problem on my PC, I'd be paying for their experience and their ability to employ it in a problem-solving process, not their ability to poke about in my case with a Philips screwdriver. That, to my mind, puts it on the 'skilled' end of the spectrum.

I agree. Sometimes, in the world of computers for example, things are monotanous. However, if you are doing something standard and **** hits the fan, you are then paid to fix that issue.

In this case you are paid for what you know, not specifically what you do.

 

[Brian Stuart]

I agree. Sometimes, in the world of computers for example, things are monotanous. However, if you are doing something standard and **** hits the fan, you are then paid to fix that issue.

In this case you are paid for what you know, not specifically what you do.

That kind of way hits the nail on the head. I'm not paid for what I do but what I might have to do .

 

[dangerstat]

"many years of expensive professional training"... or experience and brainpower. You can't class somebody's ability based on how much was spent on their training. A person could spend thousands on tuition, whereas someone else could develop that same knowledge through experience, and likely be the more useful candidate for a job.

My dad has common sense, screwdrivers and memory sticks. He still calls me when his PC goes wrong. Your argument is from the perspective of someone who already possesses such skill (through experience) and therefore will not give that skill any real value. You need to try and see it from the perspective of someone lacking such a skill. Sure, they could learn to have the skill, but so could they learn to be a plumber, a sculptor, architect, craftsman...

that is nonsense

So how the hell would one become a doctor via experience and not professional training "Erm Mrs X, I'm very sorry but I've not come across this illness before, so I'm just give a this random tablet ago, oh and next week can I borrow your son to practice a bit of surgery, don't worry the man on the internet says this experience will make into a Doctor"... please... the same is true for Architects, if you don't do professional training the bloody skyscrapers'll fall down. A scientist gets it wrong a rocket blows up, but what happens if a PC fix it guy gets it wrong, out lose a few pictures of your doggie!

"A person could spend thousands on tuition, whereas someone else could develop that same knowledge through experience, and likely be the more useful candidate for a job" - Nope I'm sorry but this just is not true, there are some courses, a very small amount that this is valid, but anything vaguely technical requires extensive training, you can't just pick up a programming for dummies book practice for a couple of years and call yourself a computer scientist!

 

[Swordfish]

I dont charge an hourly rate for residentail customers, but apply a flat rate (plus parts) dependiong on the job. For business clients I charge £20 PM PH.

Works out well.

Every one pays no problem. Only ever had one customer who said "OK come and do the repair,but I'll send you a cheque at the end of the month). Needless to say I did not do job.

 

[Admiral Huddy]

.

So I may as well join this 'debate' about skilled vs unskilled labour.
I don't think you're looking at this the right way. You're comparing a job that requires knowledge to a job that requires a craft skill. You can't compare a sculptor to a lawyer, you can't compare an IT technician to a plumber. It may not fit into your idea of skilled labour, but neither would a lawyer or scientist

I think this sums it pretty well to be honest.

I think anyone who actually repairs PCs knows that it's more than about just picking up a screwdriver and "applying a bit of common sense". Correct diagnosis comes with understanding the problem and the user, experience and applying the correct method. As I said before, it's one thing building or upgrading PCs but another thing doing repairs for oother people you don't know, who expect results.

 

[maddness]

£35 per hour doesnt sound that bad

... but then again how many hours can it take to do a job?

that is what the customer is probably thinking

 

[Brian Stuart]

I think this sums it pretty well to be honest.

I think anyone who actually repairs PCs knows that it's more than about just picking up a screwdriver and "applying a bit of common sense". Correct diagnosis comes with understanding the problem and the user, experience and applying the correct method. As I said before, it's one thing building or upgrading PCs but another thing doing repairs for oother people you don't know, who expect results.

Also there is the aftercare element to consider. Many of my customers phone with all sorts of issues not related to the original problem that I help them with over the phone for no charge.

 

[Admiral Huddy]

[QUOTE='[TW]The point is that both a lawyer and a scientist requires many years of expensive professional training, whereas fixing computers requires a phillips screwdriver, a USB memory stick and some common sense. Surely you can't compare fixing computers to either of those two trades? You must be able to see the difference?[/QUOTE]

I don't think actually anyone disagrees with this Fox. It's all releative. I wouldn't expect a lawyer, scientist to get out of bed for £35ph. That said, the thing they all have in common is that they all require a significant amount of knowledge and some more than others. When it comes to "skills" are you sure you are not confusing this with practical skills, like a carpenter because they are two different things.

 

[Helium_Junkie]

that is nonsense

you can't just pick up a programming for dummies book practice for a couple of years and call yourself a computer scientist!

Well, how about a notable example? Einstein. Scientist.
Wrote his first thesis without any "training", having picked up a few books and read them.
Does this mean he wasn't smart? Do his theories not count now that you know that?

You don't need expensive training to learn to build furniture (skilled labour). If you are smart enough to work out why a design didnt work, you are smart enough to rebuild it right. That's experience and brainpower

You can learn things yourself you know, you dont have to throw money at a problem.

And no, a doctor wouldnt be an example of what I am trying to describe, obviously...

But I think this is way offtopic, and am confused how we got here

Back to the matter at hand, I would like to suggest that a skilled labourer (carpenter) could be likened to an IT techy.

Building a chair vs building a pc.
Chair: Have to know what kind of wood is best suited, what kind of joints and fixings to use, how different parts will go together, where the stresses will be and what therefore requires reinforcement, size/requirements of the potential user.

PC: Have to know what brands/product lines are best suited to the task (dual core? 64 bit?) and what other components are compatible and will make the most of each part (would you use 1066FSB cpu with 333FSB ram? would your mum know the answer?) what the stresses will be (music? graphics? games? word processing?) etc.

The skills in terms of required knowledge are not so different.

 

[[TW]Fox]

"many years of expensive professional training"... or experience and brainpower.

I'd love to become a solicitor based purely on experience and brainpower without any professional training!

My dad has common sense, screwdrivers and memory sticks. He still calls me when his PC goes wrong.

Becuase you are there. My dad does the same, but he wouldnt call an IT guy if I wasnt there and if he did and got '£35 an hour' he'd say 'Err I'll call you back' which YET AGAIN is answering Huddys original point.

 

[Sawell]

They are suprised at your price and wish to check the competion first. If they then find you are reasonably priced they will call back.

£35 an hour does seem very expensive for unskilled manual labour - most car bodyshops charge less than that for skilled bodywork repairs (My local BMW franchised dealerships bodyshop is £36 an hour) so to find that fixing a home PC costs a similar amount to skilled repairs to a damaged £20k car is a shock to some.

It's certainly a shock to me. I'd have expected your rates to be more inline with the money charges by a window cleaner or a gardener - our gardener charges £15 an hour and his work is no easier than yours. This is what most people will think and this is why you get the response you do.

Technical assistance is without doubt one of the most skilled and sought after trades in existence. You talk about repairing a 20k car over a £500 computer, that's great, but has no relevance what so ever. On a smaller scale you could compare a £2,000 computer to a £300 car, or on a lager scale (and I'll give you some practical knowledge here), a friend of mine got called out at 1am to diagnose and replace a CPU on an exchange server running mail through a £2.5m network infrastructure. He probably couldn't graft a new bumper on a car, but a working class mechanic probably couldn't diagnose a pc. Just because you find it easy it doesn't mean the rest of the world does, otherwise technical support wouldn't be a multi billion pound sector. It's skilled, just like gardening is skilled, and mechanics is skilled.