Replacement for Chip n Pin?

iv-tecman · 8 Mar 2006 at 10:06

Instead of chip n pin, you can now sign up for a trial finger print paying system. So, instead of a thief following you and watching you type in your number, and then nicking your card to use it, the thief will now have to mug you, and cut your finger off..

All joking aside, with this system you can pay without cards, no pins, and you don’t even need your cards on you. Would this cut down on opportunists? I mean, the idea of cutting your finger off is a little remote, as the cashier would perhaps notice that you were using a severed finger.

“Erm yes, its my wifes “old” finger, and I asked before I cut it off before I paid for this XBOX 360”.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfordshire/4784744.stm

I am not a fan of chip n pin as I felt the system imposed a new type of security that is, in truth no more secure then signing, as I’ve watched over shoppers as they type in their pins, I can give you a handful of pins I’ve seen over the past few weeks, as many can visualise a pin keypad, so would finger printing prevent theft from other bankers accounts?

Edit - correct a spelling error..

Wryel · 8 Mar 2006 at 10:09

WRT cutting your finger off, I heard some scanners need a pulse or sumink, would be way cool to pay like in Back To The Future II though.

Lagz · 8 Mar 2006 at 10:10

Hmm fingerprint detection isn't reliable enough to work on a large scale. You inevitable get false matches etc. It is also not too hard to fake someone elses fingerprint if you obtain a sample from something they have touched. I'm not sure why they are bothering really?

gib786 · 8 Mar 2006 at 10:10

i really like chip and pin, saves the hassle of signing, but this system seems a lot better, although it means i cant use my mums card when doing the big shop for her

Le_Petit_Lapin · 8 Mar 2006 at 10:13

We should have retina scans or something, only because it looks like a cool idea.

I wish I had to stick my head in a laser scanning device every time I want to use my card. :cool:

iv-tecman · 8 Mar 2006 at 10:16

Wryel said:
WRT cutting your finger off, I heard some scanners need a pulse or sumink, would be way cool to Back To The Future II though.

I got the image of cutting your finger off from Demolition Man. I wouldn't have thought cutting your finger off would be a good way to steal money from someone if the system was introduced, but is finger printing systems the way forward?

One has already admitted to taking his mum's card to go shopping... Chip n Pin allows for this, silly system really. I read somewhere, but I can't find it right now that Chip n Pin is only to protect the banks. The card belongs to the bank, and if used by someone who knows your pin, "you" or something has to foot the bill..

the old signature system, most of the time you would be refunded. I'll have to find the document, so as I can re-educate myself on it.

Basher · 8 Mar 2006 at 10:16

Biometric security isn't really all that reliable currently, so would need an awful lot of work before it could realistically be implemented.

Chip and Pin, is already cutting fraud, by 13% I think. You mentioned you concerns about chip and pin, but for me, it is much more secure, it just seems ridiculous now to have a signature on the back of a card, leaving a situation whereby if the card was stolen, or found on the street, the theif had all they needed right there in front of them to take the money from the account.

firstborn · 8 Mar 2006 at 10:19

Chips and pin's cool as I can send my other half shopping for me with my card and vice versa

Basher · 8 Mar 2006 at 10:20

firstborn said:
Chips and pin's cool as I can send my other half shopping for me with my card and vice versa

Sending your other half shopping with your card!? That sounds dangerous

Borris · 8 Mar 2006 at 10:21

You can fake fingerprints with gummi-bears.

I'll stick with chip'n'pin for the moment - no sense getting all excited over a saving of a few seconds.

Lagz · 8 Mar 2006 at 10:21

Basher said:
Biometric security isn't really all that reliable currently, so would need an awful lot of work before it could realistically be implemented.

Well a lot of it. Iris recognition is the only reliable biometric system at the moment. You can even do it without having to look at a scanner these days. Airports can use wall/roof mounted cameras to obtain iris patterns as people walk past even if they dont look directly at the camera. It really is amazing technology.

Visage · 8 Mar 2006 at 10:22

iv-tecman said:
I got the image of cutting your finger off from Demolition Man. I wouldn't have thought cutting your finger off would be a good way to steal money from someone if the system was introduced, but is finger printing systems the way forward?

One has already admitted to taking his mum's card to go shopping... Chip n Pin allows for this, silly system really. I read somewhere, but I can't find it right now that Chip n Pin is only to protect the banks. The card belongs to the bank, and if used by someone who knows your pin, "you" or something has to foot the bill..

the old signature system, most of the time you would be refunded. I'll have to find the document, so as I can re-educate myself on it.

The difference now is that its a lot harder for someone to find out your pin without your knowledge.

Under the old system a card could easily be cloned without your knowledge. Cloning chips is nigh on impossible, so as long as you keep your pin secret you're OK.

Obviously if someone coerces your PIN out of you, you're in a position to inform the bank immediately, wheras you may not know your card's been cloned until you get your next bank statement.....

Borris · 8 Mar 2006 at 10:23

Visage said:
The difference now is that its a lot harder for someone to find out your pin without your knowledge.

Ve haff vays . . .

iv-tecman · 8 Mar 2006 at 10:28

Visage said:
The difference now is that its a lot harder for someone to find out your pin without your knowledge.

Under the old system a card could easily be cloned without your knowledge. Cloning chips is nigh on impossible, so as long as you keep your pin secret you're OK.

Obviously if someone coerces your PIN out of you, you're in a position to inform the bank immediately, wheras you may not know your card's been cloned until you get your next bank statement.....

Partly true. I have given that some consideration before. But the machines in shops are easy to overlook, and then the thief just following you down the road, in hope of picking your pocket..

Perhaps a little paraniod, as it hasn't happened to me - yet. And I'm not actually in support of finger printing. I just read the article and thought it might make an intresting debate.

However, I'm not a big fan of chip n pin. The system has flaws, the biggest I feel are the cashiers not allowing you a place to type your pin in without half a Q behind you watching over.

I never feel comfortable doing this, and try and hide my key presses best I can.

Visage · 8 Mar 2006 at 10:29

Borris said:
Ve haff vays . . .

'Give me your pin or i'll stab you in the knockers' type ways?

Visage · 8 Mar 2006 at 10:31

iv-tecman said:
Partly true. I have given that some consideration before. But the machines in shops are easy to overlook, and then the thief just following you down the road, in hope of picking your pocket..

But thats less of a risk as is present under non C&P cards. Old system - Steal the card, copy the signature (easy). New system - Steal the card and also try and find out the pin (harder).

Basher · 8 Mar 2006 at 10:31

iv-tecman said:
However, I'm not a big fan of chip n pin. The system has flaws, the biggest I feel are the cashiers not allowing you a place to type your pin in without half a Q behind you watching over.

But do you agree its still more secure than signing?

Certainly at my local supermarket, the chip and pin machine is facing away from the queue and is well shielded, it would be extremely hard for anyone behind me in the queue to see my pin.

iv-tecman · 8 Mar 2006 at 10:40

Basher said:
But do you agree its still more secure than signing?

Certainly at my local supermarket, the chip and pin machine is facing away from the queue and is well shielded, it would be extremely hard for anyone behind me in the queue to see my pin.

Ah yeah.. It is "better" then signing, but I do remember reading there was a hidden agenda into chip n pin. Banks offloading loses to the customer or shop. I think now, after 14th feb, any shop that still excepts a signature is liable for any loss due to a stolen card, and not the bank, unless the card is a special sign for card that can be requested. For those who cannot remember four digit codes etc..

Doesn't stop online transactions either. Card can still be stolen, and used as a "customer not present" transaction. All you need is an old bank statement... Reason I "never" bin mine, and shread all other important information...

however, I never fully supported the system as being "the" safe way to shop. and I shall never support it either, as it isn't. It has lured many into a false sense.

Basher · 8 Mar 2006 at 10:44

iv-tecman said:
however, I never fully supported the system as being "the" safe way to shop. and I shall never support it either, as it isn't. It has lured many into a false sense.

In your opinion, what would be a safe method?

callmeBadger · 8 Mar 2006 at 10:49

Chip 'n' Pin is no more secure than Signitures, it stops the cards being skimmed, but so would any verification method that used a coded chip.

With a signiture, shops would have to keep the slips for years, adn if you saw an item on your statement you didn't pay for, you could go and check the signature slip.

With Chip ‘n’ Pin, there is no audit trail, banks just have to say “this system is more secure, it was authorised by your PIN, so it must have been you, or You let someone else have the number.”

They just shift the blame from banks having to pay for fraudulently used transactions, to the account holder who let someone see them type the number in.